Why Morgan Stanley Launched the Cheapest Bitcoin ETF on the Market
James Seyffart didn't expect Morgan Stanley to do this. Now he's watching to see if BlackRock blinks.
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When Morgan Stanley launched MSBT this week, it didn't just become the first major US bank to issue its own spot Bitcoin ETF — it became the cheapest one on the market, undercutting BlackRock's iBIT by 11 basis points. For a firm not known for fee competition, that surprised even close ETF watchers.
James Seyffart, senior analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence, has spent years tracking how wirehouses have slowly warmed to Bitcoin products. He joins Laura Shin to discuss what MSBT's launch says about where institutional crypto adoption is heading, whether Morgan Stanley's 16,000 advisors and $7 trillion in assets could meaningfully shift flows, and why Seyffart now sees inaction on crypto as the active choice, not the safe one, for portfolio managers.
Plus: Strategy's $14.5 billion loss, Saylor keeps buying, and why MSTR’s S&P 500 question is now entirely a Bitcoin price story.
Host:
Laura Shin, Host / Unchained
Guest:
James Seyffart, Senior Analyst, Bloomberg Intelligence
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What's Next for Crypto ETFs, ETFs vs DATs, Crypto ETF Explosion & Institutional Inflows | James Seyffart
James Seyffart from Bloomberg Intelligence joins to break down the state of crypto ETFs and their explosive growth.
We cover the rise of Bitcoin and Ethereum ETFs, the debate between ETFs and DATs, and the institutional inflows reshaping the market. James explains how advisors, hedge funds, and sovereign wealth funds are participating, the regulatory hurdles around staking ETFs, and why basket products may be the next big wave.
We also explore the implications of tokenized ETFs, the S&P 500’s gatekeeping of crypto companies, and what to watch for in the coming months as approvals and new products hit the market.
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TIMESTAMPS
0:00 Intro
1:18 DATs vs ETFs
6:18 DATs Final Equilibrium
9:21 ETFs 1-Year Check-in
23:42 Crypto Indexes
30:41 ETF Approval Process
41:03 Solana ETF
44:17 BTC & ETH ETFs
56:11 What’s Driving the Price?
59:39 Crypto Companies in the S&P
1:07:17 Blackrock Tokenized ETFs?
1:13:59 Key Outcomes
1:19:14 Closing & Disclaimers
------
RESOURCES
James Seyffart
https://x.com/JSeyff
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesseyffart
Bloomberg Intelligence
https://www.bloomberg.com/professional/products/bloomberg-terminal/research/bloomberg-intelligence/
------
Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here:
https://www.bankless.com/disclosures
ETH ETF Officially Approved! | James Seyffart
✨Mint the episode on Zora✨ https://zora.co/collect/zora:0x0c294913a7596b427add7dcbd6d7bbfc7338d53f/3
The Ether spot ETF has officially been approved marking a landmark day for Ethereum and crypto as a whole. We're going live today to discuss the extent of this approval and what it means for Ether the asset, and more broadly the entire crypto industry. This is a big deal and we're stoked to be sharing this moment live with the Bankless Nation.
James on X: https://x.com/JSeyff
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TIMESTAMPS & RESOURCES
00:00 It Happened
05:09 ETF Approved!
07:24 Boom Approval Surprise
09:11 Why Did This Happen?
13:38 When Will The ETFs Go Live?
15:47 ETF Inflows
19:18 ETH Education Campaign
21:37 Staked ETF?
24:14 What Coin is Next?
------
Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here:
https://www.bankless.com/disclosures
Why Some Brokerage Firms Are Blocking Access to Spot Bitcoin ETFs - Ep. 594
Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Fountain, Overcast, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Pandora, Castbox, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform.
Unless you've been living under a rock, you probably heard that spot Bitcoin ETFs were finally approved by the SEC this week. That set the stage for 11 such offerings from the likes of BlackRock, Fidelity, and ARK 21Shares to begin trading on Thursday. On this episode of Unchained, Nate Geraci, president of the ETF Store; Eric Balchunas, senior ETF analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence; and James Seyffart, research analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence discussed the initial record trading volumes, the mechanics of how the funds work, the botched roll-out process, the pointed commentary from SEC commissioners, the potential for future Ethereum spot ETFs and predictions for total inflows. Plus, they explain why brokerage firms like Vanguard, Merrill and others were blocking customer access to the ETFs.
Show highlights:
The initial impact and trading volumes on the launch day of the ETFs
How BlackRock’s ETF, IBIT, had a lot of volume in pre-market and what that means
Why Eric was surprised that BlackRock proceeded with a waiver for its ETF, but realized that it was “genius marketing”
Whether there’s a problem that ETFs don’t trade 24/7, unlike BTC itself
Why James says the spot ETFs are not going to have significant premiums or discounts to NAV
What the percentage premium is and how it will play out with spot Bitcoin ETFs
Whether the SEC will ever allow in-kind creation and redemption
Why Nate and Eric believe that the SEC’s denials of spot Bitcoin ETFs for a decade was “completely suboptimal” for retail investors
How the SEC commissioners pointedly disagreed with each other in their comments and dissents
The politics of the approval process
Whether Ethereum spot ETFs will be approved next
Why some big platforms and brokerages are not offering the spot Bitcoin ETFs
How RIAs will respond to the ETF and whether there’s going to be mainstream adoption by advisors
Thank you to our sponsors!
Arbitrum Foundation
Popcorn Network
iTrustCapital
Guests
James Seyffart, Research analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence
Previous appearances on Unchained: Why Spot Bitcoin ETFs Are Likely to Finally Start Trading on Thursday
Why the SEC May Want Cash Creation of Spot Bitcoin ETFs
Why It Looks Like BlackRock Could Win America’s First Spot Bitcoin ETF
Why a Spot Bitcoin ETF Will Probably Launch No Later Than January 10
Eric Balchunas, Senior ETF analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence
Previous appearances on Unchained:
Why Spot Bitcoin ETFs Are Likely to Finally Start Trading on Thursday
Will a Spot Bitcoin ETF Finally Get Approved?
Nate Geraci, President of The ETF Store
Links
Previous coverage of Unchained on spot Bitcoin ETFs:
The 4 Factors That Will Determine Which Spot Bitcoin ETFs Win Market Share
How Much Money Will Flow Into Bitcoin ETFs? Here’s One Projection
The Chopping Block: Are We Back? The ‘Low IQ’ Response to the Potential Spot Bitcoin ETF
Approval:
Unchained:
Spot Bitcoin ETFs Finally Receive SEC Seal of Approval
What Officials, ETF Issuers, and Others Are Saying About the SEC's Spot Bitcoin ETF Approvals
Laura Shin’s op-ed on Unchained: Why Spot Bitcoin ETFs Are (But Mostly Aren't) a Big Deal for Crypto
David Z. Morris’ op-ed on Unchained: The SEC’s Bumbling Bitcoin ETF Rollout Was Perfectly On-Brand
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Why Spot Bitcoin ETFs Are Likely to Finally Start Trading on Thursday - Ep. 592
It’s set to be a historic week in crypto, with the SEC widely expected to finally approve a spot Bitcoin ETF, although it’s not a 100% certainty. Two Bloomberg analysts who have followed all the developments closely since the beginning, James Seyffart and Eric Balchunas, join Unchained to discuss the final filings, the likely schedule, and whether all the applications are likely be approved on the same day. Then they dive into the real action: the cutthroat wars that have already begun, why Grayscale might be keeping its fees on the Grayscale Bitcoin Trust so high, and who the likely winners in what has traditionally been a “winner take most” category will be.
Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Fountain, Overcast, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Pandora, Castbox, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform.
Show highlights:
What the recent 19b-4 and S-1 filings say about how close the ETFs are to approval
Whether Hashdex's existing futures ETF impacts its treatment in the spot Bitcoin ETF process
The likely timeline for trading to start post-ETF approval
The possibility of simultaneous launches for all approved ETF issuers
The SEC's concerns about ensuring a fair launch, informed by the BITO experience
Eric’s surprise at JP Morgan's involvement as an Authorized Participant
Why the SEC is approving the ETF despite Gensler’s stance against crypto
What extreme cases Eric believes might cause the ETF not to be approved
How BlackRock's low fees set a challenging benchmark for competitors
The potential for an issuer to offer even lower fees than current players
How issuer margins are thin due to marketing fees, and the impact of waivers
James’ theory about why Grayscale might be keeping the fee on GBTC so high
Predictions about which issuer(s) will gain the bulk of assets under management
The rumor about BlackRock introducing substantial liquidity on the ETF's first day
Eric and James's expectations for ETF inflows and market dynamics
Thank you to our sponsors!
Arbitrum Foundation
Popcorn Network
Guest:
James Seyffart, Research analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence
Previous appearances on Unchained:
Why the SEC May Want Cash Creation of Spot Bitcoin ETFs
Why It Looks Like BlackRock Could Win America’s First Spot Bitcoin ETF
Why a Spot Bitcoin ETF Will Probably Launch No Later Than January 10
Eric Balchunas, Senior ETF analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence
Previous appearances on Unchained:
Will a Spot Bitcoin ETF Finally Get Approved?
Links
Previous coverage of Unchained on spot Bitcoin ETFs:
The 4 Factors That Will Determine Which Spot Bitcoin ETFs Win Market Share
How Much Money Will Flow Into Bitcoin ETFs? Here’s One Projection
The Chopping Block: Are We Back? The ‘Low IQ’ Response to the Potential Spot Bitcoin ETF
Fees
Unchained: Fee Competition Heats Up Among BlackRock and Other Spot Bitcoin ETF Applicants
Caitlin Long’s tweet warning about no fees
Fidelity set their fee to .39%
Invesco/Galaxy chose to waive fees
Market participants:
Unchained: Goldman Sachs Could Take Vital Role in BlackRock, Grayscale Spot Bitcoin ETFs: Report
The Block: Nasdaq to meet with SEC today to discuss spot bitcoin ETFs: Source
Reuters: BlackRock, VanEck among asset managers that submitted updated filings for spot bitcoin ETF
CoinDesk: BlackRock, Valkyrie Name Authorized Participants Including JPMorgan for Bitcoin ETF
Others:
Better Markets’ letter: The SEC Must Follow the Law and Reject Spot Bitcoin ETPs Which Will Inflict Massive Investor Harm
FXSTREET: BlackRock might be on track to create history with $2 billion inflows in spot Bitcoin ETF in a week
Eleanor Terrett of Fox News’ tweet on Better Markets’ letter
Scott Johnson of Van Buren Capital’s estimate
Learn more:
Unchained:
Bitcoin ETFs Explained: What Are They & How Do They Work?
Why The Spot Bitcoin ETF Is a Big Deal
Deciding on Bitcoin: Should New Investors Jump In Now or Wait for an ETF?
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Bloomberg analyst explains plan forward for spot bitcoin ETF: The SEC has been 'backed into a corner'
James Seyffart is an ETF Research Analyst for Bloomberg Intelligence.
In this episode, Seyffart shares why he believes a spot bitcoin ETF approval is on the way and how the market might react to the news.
Grayscale Investments’ win against the SEC in August over its application to convert its flagship Grayscale Bitcoin Trust (GBTC) product into a spot bitcoin ETF is another major factor in the SEC’s potential approval, Seyffart said.
“I think the SEC has kind of been backed into a corner here by the judges basically throwing out every decision and reasoning it's used to deny an ETF in the past,” he added. “I think the SEC and Chair Gary Gensler know that they were overplaying their hand a bit and are kind of forced into a corner right now.”
OUTLINE:
00:00 - Bitcoin ETFs Overview
04:30 - Bitcoin ETF Decision Timelines
07:47 - Spot Ethereum ETF Odds
09:54 - Spot Bitcoin ETF Odds
18:09 - Grayscale vs. SEC
24:35 - Crypto ETF Nuances
27:03 - Institutional BTC Demand
33:29 - Closing Thoughts
Why the SEC May Want Cash Creation of Spot Bitcoin ETFs - Ep. 582
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The long-awaited approval of a spot bitcoin ETF looks to be mere weeks away, and Bloomberg ETF analyst James Seyffart joins Unchained to discuss the final issues and considerations, especially the battle over whether the new funds will feature in-kind vs. cash creation and redemptions, which appears to be one of the last main sticking points in negotiations between the SEC and fund companies. He also discusses the specific impact of an ETF approval on Grayscale, which runs the $26.6 billion Grayscale Bitcoin Trust, and why he thinks the SEC has thrown in the towel on trying to classify Ethereum as a security.
Show highlights:
Why James views the multitude of potential issuers meeting with the SEC as a positive sign for the future of ETFs
When James anticipates the ETFs will actually be listed on exchanges, which differs from their approval dates
The crucial differences between in-kind versus cash creation and redemptions in ETFs and their impact on market dynamics
How the choice of in-kind or cash creation and redemptions influences the overall cost structure of these financial products
Whether the current actions of ETF issuers suggest a "bending the knee" approach to the SEC's preference for cash creations and redemptions
How the selected ETF model will specifically impact Grayscale and the future of its GBTC offering
The potential strategies behind BlackRock's private trust, especially in terms of integrating its Bitcoin holdings into its prospective ETF
Why James holds a more cautious outlook for the approval of an Ethereum spot ETF compared to his confidence in Bitcoin ETFs
Thank you to our sponsors!
Arbitrum Foundation
Popcorn Network
Uniswap
Guest
James Seyffart, Research analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence
Previous appearances on Unchained:
Why It Looks Like BlackRock Could Win America’s First Spot Bitcoin ETF
Why a Spot Bitcoin ETF Will Probably Launch No Later Than January 10
Links
Previous coverage on spot Bitcoin ETFs:
How Much Money Will Flow Into Bitcoin ETFs? Here’s One Projection
Why a Spot Bitcoin ETF Will Probably Launch No Later Than January 10
Why It Looks Like BlackRock Could Win America’s First Spot Bitcoin ETF
The Chopping Block: Are We Back? The ‘Low IQ’ Response to the Potential Spot Bitcoin ETF
Unchained:
Bitcoin ETFs Explained: What Are They & How Do They Work?
BlackRock Updates Bitcoin ETF Filing to Make Access Easier for Wall Street Banks
Understanding the ETF creation and redemption mechanism
Nate Geraci’s tweet on in-kind/cash
James comments “the people want in-kind”
James: “I think everyone is gonna have to bend the knee to cash creates and redeems.”
Eric Balchunas suggests the SEC is only letting cash-create ETFs launch initially
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Why a Spot Bitcoin ETF Will Probably Launch No Later Than January 10 - Ep. 560
James Seyffart, market analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence, and Matt Hougan, chief investment officer at Bitwise Asset Management, feel quite certain a spot Bitcoin ETF will launch in the next few months.
First, the SEC decided not to appeal a court’s rejection of Grayscale’s application to convert its bitcoin trust to a spot ETF. Second, there’s been a change in the way the SEC has been treating the many other spot Bitcoin ETF applications—requesting miniscule tweaks in disclosure language. And even though other legal hiccups are occurring—the NY Attorney General’s lawsuit against Grayscale parent company, DCG, the SEC’s potentially renewed vigor in the Ripple case, and Cointelegraph’s incorrect tweet about a bitcoin ETF—the SEC needs a PR win right now. According to them, this means good things not just for spot Bitcoin ETFs but also, shortly thereafter, Ethereum ETFs.
Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Stitcher, Castbox, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform.
Show highlights:
why the SEC did not appeal a decision in the Grayscale case
whether the NYAG lawsuit against DGC, the parent company of Grayscale, will affect the prospects for GBTC being converted into an ETF
how likely it is that GBTC will be converted into an ETF and what needs to happen for that to occur
why the SEC probably wants Grayscale to "completely refile," according to James
why the recent changes in the ETF applications are "relatively modest," according to Matt
whether the incorrect Cointelegraph tweet about a spot bitcoin ETF will be used by the SEC to bolster its market manipulation argument
an overview of the deadlines of the different applications
what happened at the launch of Ethereum futures ETFs and how it was different from the launch of Bitcoin futures ETFs
whether the approval of a spot Bitcoin ETF will pave the way for a spot ether ETF
what the impact is of all the negative PR for the SEC and Chair Gary Gensler after losing many cases
what the differences between the various ETFs are and how they will compete in the market
Lightning round questions: volumes after launch, inflows in the first year, projections for BTC price
Thank you to our sponsors!
Crypto.com
LayerZero
Popcorn Network
Guests:
James Seyffart, Research analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence
Previous appearance on Unchained: Why It Looks Like BlackRock Could Win America’s First Spot Bitcoin ETF
Matthew Hougan, CIO of Bitwise
Previous appearances on Unchained:
The 2 Types of Investors Driving Interest in Crypto
Bitwise’s Latest Plans to Get a Bitcoin ETF Approved
Links
ETFs:
Previous coverage of Unchained on ETFs:
Does Grayscale’s Win Against the SEC Mean a Spot Bitcoin ETF Will Be Approved?
Grayscale v. SEC: Who Won This Week’s Hearing?
Why Grayscale Is Suing the SEC Over Its Denial of a Bitcoin ETF
$5 Billion in AUM: Why Growth at Grayscale Exploded in the Last Quarter
Bitwise’s Latest Plans to Get a Bitcoin ETF Approved
DCG’s Dilemma: Should It Sell Its GBTC Holdings to Repay Gemini?
Unchained:
Bitcoin Surges to $30K After False Spot ETF Approval Tweet
Ethereum Futures ETFs See ‘Average’ First Day Trading Volumes
Cointelegraph: Clarification on sharing false spot Bitcoin ETF news
Redeem GBTC 🌽 Campaign
Ripple:
SEC Drops Charges Against Ripple CEO and Chairman - Unchained Crypto
Market manipulation
CNET: 23-year-old arrested in Emulex hoax
SEC Charges Avraham Eisenberg with Manipulating Mango Markets’ “Governance Token” to Steal $116 Million of Crypto Assets
NYAG lawsuit:
NY Attorney General Sues Crypto Firms Gemini, Genesis, and DCG for Over $1 Billion Fraud
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Expert's Take: Is a Bitcoin ETF Really Possible? with James Seyffart
Today we're joined by James Seyffart, a research analyst at Bloomberg who's the perfect person to answer our questions regarding the convergence of crypto and ETFs.
We dive into: - The probabilities of a Blackrock Bitcoin ETF and why - Important dates in which the SEC will need to give us answers - Neutrality, or lack thereof around the ETF approval process
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------ TIMESTAMPS
0:00 Intro 7:44 What is an ETF? 13:00 ETF History Lesson 17:40 ETF Market Size and Holders 22:46 Types of ETFs 27:02 Where Are These Assets Stores 34:04 Who Approves ETFs? 40:08 Neutrality Of Regulators 44:16 Types of Bitcoin ETFs 49:17 Reasons For Rejection 55:12 Does Gary Just Hate Crypto? 58:13 Does Blackrock Change Things? 1:04:46 Will Blackrock Get Approved? 1:15:20 Possible Approval Dates 1:19:09 Lack of ETFs to Blame For Crypto Fallout? 1:28:38 Why Should we Care? 1:34:14 Risks and Disclaimers
------ RESOURCES
James on Twitter: https://twitter.com/JSeyff
Trillions Podcast: https://www.bloomberg.com/podcasts/series/trillions
------ Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research.
Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures
Why It Looks Like BlackRock Could Win America’s First Spot Bitcoin ETF - Ep. 509
The SEC has swatted down so many spot bitcoin ETF applications that crypto diehards simply gave up caring. Then comes TradFi giant BlackRock – at the height of the SEC’s crypto crackdown, no less – with an ETF application that has seemingly changed the calculus. Bloomberg Intelligence ETF watcher James Seyffart joins the show to unpack the odds of BlackRock being the first to win approval, and what it would mean for other players in the space chasing down TradFi’s “holy grail.”
Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Stitcher, Castbox, Google Podcasts, TuneIn, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform.
Show highlights:
why the SEC rejected all of the previous bitcoin spot ETF applications
what makes the application from BlackRock, the world’s largest asset manager, different
what a 19b-4 filing is and how it relates to the BlackRock application
whether BlackRock “knows something,” considering the recent enforcement actions against major crypto exchanges
why being a first mover is a considerable advantage in the ETF market
whether BlackRock choosing Coinbase as a custodian is a risk, given that the SEC is in a legal battle with Coinbase
what’s different about a spot bitcoin ETF, and why a bitcoin futures ETF is not enough
what are the differences between the applications filed by BlackRock, Invesco, WisdomTree and Valkyrie
which are the applications that are most likely to be approved, according to James
what the impact will be of Grayscale’s lawsuit against the SEC over the denial of its proposal to convert GBTC to an ETF
why James says that Gary Gensler could be thinking like a politician as it relates to spot bitcoin ETFs
Thank you to our sponsors!
Crypto.com
Copilot Money
ProtonMail
Guest
James Seyffart, Research analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence
Links
Previous coverage of Unchained on the topic:
Grayscale v. SEC: Who Won This Week’s Hearing?
Why Grayscale Is Suing the SEC Over Its Denial of a Bitcoin ETF
$5 Billion in AUM: Why Growth at Grayscale Exploded in the Last Quarter
Bitwise’s Latest Plans to Get a Bitcoin ETF Approved
DCG’s Dilemma: Should It Sell Its GBTC Holdings to Repay Gemini?
The Block: BlackRock ETF launch would put pressure on Grayscale's valuation: Bloomberg analyst
CoinDesk: A Straightforward Explanation for Why Financial Giants Want to Issue a Spot Bitcoin ETF
Unchained:
Invesco and WisdomTree Follow BlackRock, Reapply for Bitcoin ETFs
BlackRock Files for Bitcoin Spot ETF
Valkyrie Applies for Bitcoin Spot ETF ‘BRRR’
Reuters:
Cboe files with U.S. SEC for third time to list ARK 21Shares Bitcoin ETF
US court questions SEC's rejection of Grayscale's bitcoin fund proposal
Barron’s: ETF: Invesco, WisdomTree Join Push. Why It Might Happen.
Blockworks: BlackRock, then Bitwise — How the spot bitcoin ETF filings differ
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BlackRock’s Bitcoin ETF application is the ‘holy grail’ of exposure for TradFi, says analyst
James Seyffart is an ETF analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence.
In this episode, Seyffart analyzes BlackRock's recently announced spot bitcoin ETF application and the impact it would have on the crypto market if approved.
While bitcoin futures ETFs exist, Seyffart says that BlackRock's spot bitcoin ETF application is the "holy grail of bitcoin exposure in the TradFi markets."
In the wake of BlackRock's filling, Wisdom Tree, Invesco, and Valkyrie also put their hats back in the race for a spot bitcoin ETF.
This episode is brought to you by our sponsors PayPal and CleanSpark.
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