Gustav Söderström - How Spotify Thinks - [Invest Like the Best, EP.424]
My guest today is Gustav Söderström. Gustav is the Co-President, Chief Product Officer & Chief Technology Officer at Spotify. Gustav lets us behind the scenes on how Spotify thinks about the future of audio and video, and what leadership lessons he's learned from making mistakes and taking risks in a rapidly changing technological landscape. He shares fascinating insights on their synchronized team structure and how they have positioned themselves as "the R&D department" for the entire music industry. We discuss their integration of AI, their unique "bets board" process for allocating resources, and how they've evolved from a music service into a multimedia platform with over 650 million users. Please enjoy my conversation with Gustav Söderström.
For the full show notes, transcript, and links to mentioned content, check out the episode page here.
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Editing and post-production work for this episode was provided by The Podcast Consultant (https://thepodcastconsultant.com).
Show Notes:
(00:00:00) Welcome to Invest Like the Best
(00:05:27) Spotify's Journey Through Technological Shifts
(00:06:28) The Impact of Generative AI on Consumer Products
(00:09:36) AI in Coding and Productivity
(00:11:11) Consumer Engagement and AI Playlisting
(00:14:43) Strategic Frameworks and Decision-Making at Spotify
(00:19:39) The Bets Process: Structured Innovation
(00:31:11) The Future of AI and Business Models
(00:44:31) The Future of AI and Inference Costs
(00:46:21) The Concept of Computronium and Infinite Computing
(00:47:02) David Deutsch and the Beginning of Infinity
(00:48:55) The Power of Explanations and Human Understanding
(00:54:03) Spotify's Free Tier and Consumer Needs
(00:56:45) Spotify's Relationship with the Music Industry
(01:03:03) The Rise of Podcasting and Audiobooks
(01:15:45) Personal Interests and Continuous Learning
(01:20:32) The Kindest Thing Anyone Has Ever Done For Gustav
Spotify's Plan For AI Generated Music, Podcasts, and Recommendations — With Gustav Söderström
Gustav Söderström is Spotify's co-president, chief technology officer, and chief product officer. He joins Big Technology Podcast — as we debut video episodes on Spotify — for discussion of Spotify's approach to AI generated content, algorithmic recommendations, and more. Tune in for a deep conversation covering whether Spotify wants AI-generated music and podcasts on its platform, how it can lean on AI recommendations to enhance discovery while sustaining human choice, and its long term AI vision. Stay tuned for the second half where we discuss Spotify's plans for podcasts, audiobooks, and other new formats.
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20VC Roundtable: Spotify, Adobe & Linkedin CPOs on How AI Changes The Future of Product, Why AI is Now the Product, How TikTok Changed Product, Why Cost is the Biggest Barrier to LLM Usage & Why Incumbents Can Adopt AI Faster Than Any Prior Innovation Cyc
Gustav Söderström is the Co-President, CPO & CTO at Spotify. Gustav has been instrumental in taking Spotify from a 30-person operation in Sweden when he joined to being the global leader of the space.
Scott Belsky is Adobe's Chief Product Officer and Executive Vice President, Creative Cloud. Scott oversees all of product and engineering for Creative Cloud, as well as design for Adobe.
Tomer Cohen is the Chief Product Officer @ Linkedin where he is responsible for setting and executing the global product strategy at LinkedIn.
In Today's Episode on How AI Changes The Future of Product and Design We Discuss:
1. Why AI Is Now the Product that UI Serves:
Why does Gustav believe that AI is now the product?
How has the importance of UI changed with the rise of AI?
How did TikTok change the product paradigm over the last few years?
2. What Matters More Models or Data:
What is more important the size of the model or the amount of data a company has?
Will companies use many models at the same time?
Why will companies using many models at once create a huge opportunity for startups?
Will every company have their own model? What will be the decision-making framework of whether to have your own model or leverage another?
How does the rise of AI change how companies approach data acquisition, collection and cleaning?
3. The Workforce Needs to Change with AI:
How do product leaders and teams need to change in an AI-first world?
What do designers need to do to stay up to date in an AI-first world?
What does it mean to be good at prompting? How can people get good at prompting?
Why will AI kill companies that charge by the hour?
Why will seat pricing die in a world of AI? What will be the business model for AI?
4. Incumbents vs Startups: Who Wins:
Do incumbents win in a world of AI or do startups?
Why is AI primed for incumbents to win and move fast in a way they could not in prior technology cycles?
What are the biggest hurdles and challenges incumbents have to face that startups do not?
What are the biggest barriers that startups have to win in a world of AI that incumbents do not have?
Spotify and Disney have everything-app dreams
Today on the flagship podcast of machine learning-based recommendation systems:
03:31 - The Verge’s David Pierce chats with Spotify’s co-president and chief product officer Gustav Söderström about recommendations, audiobooks, app design, what Spotify wants to be, and whether it’s possible to do it all well.
Spotify - The Verge
44:08 - Alex Cranz joins the show to discuss a bunch of recent streaming news, including the plan to combine Disney Plus and Hulu.
Streaming - The Verge
1:10:28 - Chris Welch joins the show to help answer this week’s Vergecast Hotline question about mp3 players.
The Mighty — an iPod shuffle for Spotify — finally arrives for $85
bemighty.com
Email us at vergecast@theverge.com or call us at 866-VERGE11, we love hearing from you.
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Lessons from scaling Spotify: The science of product, taking risky bets, and how AI is already impacting the future of music | Gustav Söderström (Co-President, CPO, and CTO at Spotify)
Brought to you by Microsoft Clarity—See how people actually use your product | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments | Eco—Your most rewarding app
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Gustav Söderström is the Co-President and Chief Product and Technology Officer at Spotify. He is responsible for Spotify’s global product and technology strategy, overseeing the product, design, data, and engineering teams. Prior to Spotify, he founded 13th Lab, a startup that was later acquired by Facebook’s Oculus. He also served as the Director of Product and Business Development for Yahoo Mobile and founded Kenet Works, a company focused on community software for mobile phones, which was acquired by Yahoo in 2006. In today’s episode, we discuss:
• How Spotify structures product teams to promote freedom of thought
• Lessons on thinking long-term and navigating negative feedback
• Why Gustav started a podcast and what he’s learned
• How AI has impacted the work PMs, engineers, and designers do within Spotify
• AI-generated music and its impact on artists
• What’s next for Spotify and Spotify Podcasting
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Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-scaling-spotify-the
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Where to find Gustav Söderström:
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/GustavS
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gustavsoderstrom/
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Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
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In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Gustav’s background
(04:08) The various roles Gustav has occupied at Spotify
(06:54) Why Gustav launched a podcast and what he learned
(12:37) How PMs and product teams should think about AI
(21:23) AI-generated music
(26:19) Will AI continue to be a magic trick for products?
(28:27) How Spotify organizes product teams
(34:33) How Spotify operationalized autonomy
(35:45) Why Spotify uses a centralized model for structuring their organization
(43:34) The big bet Spotify took with redesigning its interface, and what they learned
(57:26) How they tested their hypothesis before launch
(1:02:35) Gustav’s “10% planning time” methodology
(1:03:53) How to bring energy and clarity to your work
(1:08:07) How to systematize deep thinking
(1:10:29) The peeing-in-your-pants analogy
(1:11:38) Thoughts on how the Swedish culture is portrayed in Succession
(1:13:30) What’s next for Spotify and Spotify Podcasting
(1:15:52) Lightning round
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Referenced:
• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/
• Daniel Ek: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-ek-1b52093a/
• Spotify: A Product Story podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/3L9tzrt0CthF6hNkxYIeSB
• Spotify’s AI DJ: https://newsroom.spotify.com/2023-02-22/spotify-debuts-a-new-ai-dj-right-in-your-pocket/
• Avicii: https://avicii.com/
• DALL-E: https://openai.com/product/dall-e-2
• Stable Diffusion: https://stability.ai/
• Midjourney: https://www.midjourney.com/
• Brian Chesky: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianchesky/
• Succession on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/succession
• Fjällräven: https://www.fjallraven.com/us/en-us
• 7 Powers: The Foundations of Business Strategy: https://www.amazon.com/7-Powers-Foundations-Business-Strategy
• Charlie Munger: The Complete Investor: https://www.amazon.com/Charlie-Munger-Tren-Griffin
• The Mystery of the Aleph: Mathematics, the Kabbalah, and the Search for Infinity: https://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Aleph-Mathematics-Kabbalah-Infinity
• Something Deeply Hidden: Quantum Worlds and the Emergence of Spacetime: https://www.amazon.com/Something-Deeply-Hidden
• Helgoland: Making Sense of the Quantum Revolution: https://www.amazon.com/Helgoland-Making-Sense-Quantum-Revolution
• The Beginning of Infinity: Explanations That Transform the World: https://www.amazon.com/The-Beginning-of-Infinity
• The Fabric of Reality: The Science of Parallel Universes—and Its Implications: https://www.amazon.com/The-Fabric-of-Reality
• The Case Against Reality: Why Evolution Hid the Truth from Our Eyes: https://www.amazon.com/The-Case-Against-Reality-audiobook/dp/B07VL5TCVF/ref=sr_1_1
• Gödel’s Proof: https://www.amazon.com/G%C3%B6dels-Proof-Ernest-Nagel
• The Demon in the Machine: How Hidden Webs of Information Are Solving the Mystery of Life: https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Machine-Information-Solving-Mystery
• Halt and Catch Fire on Apple TV: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/halt-and-catch-fire/umc.cmc.5s15r46uj0wx044tipm2zoh88
• Duolingo: https://www.duolingo.com/
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Why Spotify wants to look like TikTok, with co-president Gustav Söderström
Gustav Söderström has worked at Spotify for a long time; his first big project was leading the launch of its mobile app back in 2009. That makes him the perfect company leader to talk to about Spotify’s recent redesign, which introduces a visual, TikTok-like feed for discovering new content on the app’s homepage. As his boss CEO Daniel Ek put it last week, it’s “the biggest change Spotify has undergone since we introduced mobile.”
With the title of co-president and chief product and technology officer, Söderström is responsible for not only how Spotify looks and feels but also all the AI work happening behind the scenes to power its increasingly important recommendations. According to Söderström, it turns out that improving those recommendations is actually at the heart of the big redesign. “I think companies that don’t have an efficient user interface for a machine learning world are not going to be able to leverage machine learning,” he told Alex Heath on the newest episode of Decoder.
Links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napster
Spotify is laying off 6 percent of its global workforce, CEO announces
Spotify’s new design turns your music and podcasts into a TikTok feed
Alex Heath's Tweet
Functional versus Unit Organizations
Two-Pizza Teams
Transcript:
https://www.theverge.com/e/23402123
Credits:
Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
It was produced by Creighton DeSimone and Jackie McDermott and it was edited by Callie Wright.
The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Our Editorial Director is Brooke Minters and our Executive Director is Eleanor Donovan.
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The Future of Audio
Audio is no longer just audio anymore -- podcasts now pull from new video platforms like TikTok and older ones like radio, user experience is growing and changing, and it's easier than ever to create audio content. Where do all these mediums converge and where do they diverge -- when it comes to user experience, product design, recommendations, discovery, and more?
In this episode from October 2020, a16z general partner Connie Chan and Spotify’s chief R&D officer Gustav Söderström join host Sonal Choksi to discuss the past, present and future of audio. They dig into everything from what the past in radio can tell us about the future, what audio can and will borrow from mediums like video and platforms like TikTok, the role for more interactivity and increased use of tools like machine learning and AI, and more.
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Please note that the content here is for informational purposes only; should NOT be taken as legal, business, tax, or investment advice or be used to evaluate any investment or security; and is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any a16z fund. a16z and its affiliates may maintain investments in the companies discussed. For more details please see a16z.com/disclosures.
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20 Product: Spotify's Gustav Söderström on Why Product is 100% Science and 0% Art, Why You Should Look at the Competition and then Do Something Completely Different & Why Talk is Cheap and Product Teams Should Do More of it; Structuring the Best Debate
Gustav Söderström is Spotify's Chief Research & Development Officer. He has the CPO & CTO responsibility, overseeing the product, design, data, and engineering teams at Spotify and is responsible for Spotify's product strategy. Gustav is also an entrepreneur and investor who has founded and sold startups that he co-founded to Meta's Oculus in 2014 and then also his first startup which he co-founded and led as CEO, up until their acquisition by Yahoo! Gustav is also the host of the podcast mini-series -- Spotify: A product story -- which offers a glimpse into the decisions that have guided Spotify's product evolution.
In Today's Episode with Gustav Söderström 1.) From Selling Companies to Yahoo and Meta to Leading Spotify's Product:
How did Gustav first make his way into the world of tech and startups?
What was it that made Gustav so compelled to join Daniel Ek and build Spotify?
What does Gustav know now that he wishes he had known when he started?
2.) "Never Fight a Macro Wind":
What does Gustav mean when he says "never fight a macro wind"?
What models can product leaders construct to measure the size, importance and timing of a macro wind?
What can product leaders do to change the macro wind and have it blowing in their back and not their face?
When did Gustav experience this? What did he change to have the wind blow in his back? How did this alter his mindset and mentality?
3.) "Do Something Completely Different to the Competition":
Why does Gustav believe startups should do the complete opposite to the competition? Does this change if your competition is other startups vs incumbents?
What is the story of how Spotify did the complete opposite to Youtube? Why did it work?
On the flip side, when did Spotify do the complete opposite and it did not work out?
4.) Mastering the Learning Process:
How does Gustav approach the learning process for all new skills and disciplines?
Why does Gustav believe that all technology leaders have to be the master of their domain? How did this lead to Gustav going back to University to study machine learning?
What are the single biggest mistakes people make in the learning process?
5.) Gustav: The Product Leader:
Why does Gustav believe that product is 100% science and not art?
What does Gustav mean when he says, "talk is cheap and so we should do more of it"?
How does Gustav structure internal debates? Who sets the agenda? Who is invited? What makes a good vs a bad internal debate?
How does Gustav make everyone feel safe? What can leaders do to ensure an environment where everyone feels they can debate with the boss?
6.) Spotify: The Crucible Moments:
What is Gustav's favourite near-death experience in the Spotify journey?
Why did Spotify decide to make the move into podcasting and video? How does that additional complexity change the product paradigm of an audio-only platform?
How do the single most impactful platforms in the world approach market expansion and when to add new products?
What are the best companies in the world not merely technology innovations but also business model innovations?
Items Mentioned in Today's Episode:
EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/20vc Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee!
Spotify's Gustav Söderström on machine learning to personalize user experiences
Music is universal. It transcends language. Melodies have the power to trigger strong emotions. In fact, our brains release dopamine - the “feel good” hormone - when we listen to music.
Today’s guest, Spotify’s Chief R&D Officer Gustav Söderström, has been helping to bring the magic of music, personalized playlists, and more recently, podcasts to people around the world. He’s also led the platform to personalize individual content experiences with the help of artificial intelligence.
Pieter and Gustav discuss the platform’s early approach to AI & ML, how he wants to help content creators reach more listeners and the technological details of Spotify’s ability to automatically generate millions of new playlists every day.
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The Present Future of Audio: Talk, Music, Video, Interactivity
We've already talked a lot about podcasting, both evolution of the industry as well as the form, but where are we going with the future of audio, more broadly? Can we borrow from the present and future of video (e.g., TikTok) to see what's next in audio (more layers, more interactivity)? Can we borrow from the past of audio (i.e., radio) to see what's next for audio experiences (more blending of music, talk, podcasting)? Where do all these mediums converge and where do they diverge -- when it comes to user experience, product design, recommendations, discovery?
Gustav Söderström, chief R&D officer (who oversees the product, design, data, and engineering teams) at Spotify -- the world's most popular audio streaming subscription service -- joins this episode of the a16z Podcast for a deep dive on all things audio with a16z general partner Connie Chan and editor in chief Sonal Chokshi. They cover the past, present, and future of audio -- going high level into the big trends and also dipping down into the trenches -- especially given the increased blending of talk/ podcasting, music, more. What are the challenges to designing for different mediums, on both front end and back end (including machine learning and different graphs), when listeners want everything in one place when and where they want it... yet their contexts shift?
But the conversation more broadly is really more about what happens when we give creators (of all kinds!) tools -- not just for expression but for fan engagement and monetization too. We also discuss the themes of super apps and full-stack approaches when it comes to innovating on top of a protocol, as well as how innovation happens in practice: How do mediums -- and organizations -- evolve, prioritize, "disrupt themselves"? All this and more in this episode.
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The views expressed here are those of the individual AH Capital Management, L.L.C. (“a16z”) personnel quoted and are not the views of a16z or its affiliates. Certain information contained in here has been obtained from third-party sources, including from portfolio companies of funds managed by a16z. While taken from sources believed to be reliable, a16z has not independently verified such information and makes no representations about the enduring accuracy of the information or its appropriateness for a given situation. In addition, this content may include third-party advertisements; a16z has not reviewed such advertisements and does not endorse any advertising content contained therein.
This content is provided for informational purposes only, and should not be relied upon as legal, business, investment, or tax advice. You should consult your own advisers as to those matters. References to any securities or digital assets are for illustrative purposes only, and do not constitute an investment recommendation or offer to provide investment advisory services. Furthermore, this content is not directed at nor intended for use by any investors or prospective investors, and may not under any circumstances be relied upon when making a decision to invest in any fund managed by a16z. (An offering to invest in an a16z fund will be made only by the private placement memorandum, subscription agreement, and other relevant documentation of any such fund and should be read in their entirety.) Any investments or portfolio companies mentioned, referred to, or described are not representative of all investments in vehicles managed by a16z, and there can be no assurance that the investments will be profitable or that other investments made in the future will have similar characteristics or results. A list of investments made by funds managed by Andreessen Horowitz (excluding investments for which the issuer has not provided permission for a16z to disclose publicly as well as unannounced investments in publicly traded digital assets) is available at https://a16z.com/investments/.
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Gustav Soderstrom: Spotify
Gustav Soderstrom is the Chief Research & Development Officer at Spotify, leading Product, Design, Data, Technology & Engineering teams. This conversation is part of the Artificial Intelligence podcast. If you would like to get more information about this podcast go to https://lexfridman.com/ai or connect with @lexfridman on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, Medium, or YouTube where you can watch the video versions of these conversations. If you enjoy the podcast, please rate it 5 stars on iTunes or support it on Patreon.