Eric Ries on Why Good Companies Go Bad
Eric Ries is the creator of the Lean Startup method and the author of the New York Times bestseller The Lean Startup, which transformed how a generation of founders and engineers think about building products. It introduced concepts like the MVP, the pivot, and build-measure-learn that are now so widely adopted they feel obvious. Over two decades of working with founders, CEOs, and investors, Eric has observed that some companies built on those principles eventually betray the very customers and engineers who made them great. His new book, Incorruptible: Why Good Companies Go Bad and How Great Companies Stay Great, is his attempt to answer the question of whether it is possible to build a company that resists that fate.
In this episode, Eric joins Gregor Vand for a wide-ranging discussion about why so many great companies lose their way, and what software engineers and founders can do today to build or find companies that are genuinely resistant to corruption.
Gregor Vand is a security-focused technologist, having previously been a CTO across cybersecurity, cyber insurance and general software engineering companies. He is based in Singapore and can be found via his profile at vand.hk or on LinkedIn.
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Eric Ries on How Founders Quietly Lose Their Company
He wrote the startup playbook. Then he watched founders who used it lose control of what they built. Eric Ries, author of The Lean Startup, felt like he was feeding companies into a meat grinder. Founders will hear his startup governance framework, why most lose founder control after product-market fit, and the two-page filing that protects them.
Eric breaks down what happens when one customer becomes half your revenue, how to tell real product-market fit from slow drift, and why the term-sheet paperwork your lawyer hands you is quietly working against you. He shares the Twilio case where Jeff Lawson was removed by activists 199 days after his seven-year dual-class sunset expired, and a Harvard Law School study showing only 20% of venture-backed founder CEOs are still CEO three years after IPO.
Plus: why Vectura's board sold an inhaler company to Philip Morris for an extra 10 pence per share, and what that says about every startup governance choice founders face today.
Eric Ries authored The Lean Startup and the new book Incorruptible on startup governance.
This episode is brought to you by:
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🔑 Key Lessons
🧠 Startup governance erodes through drift, not attack: Founders lose companies through quiet roadmap drift, board concessions and term-sheet defaults, not one dramatic event.
🎯 Real product-market fit feels like a tornado: If you have time to call an advisor and ask whether you have product-market fit, you do not. Real PMF means drowning in demand.
📉 One big customer can hijack your roadmap: A SaaS founder Eric advised landed a whale, and the product drifted within six months around what that customer "might" want.
🏢 The two-page filing that protects founder control: A Delaware C-corp can convert to a Public Benefit Corporation in five minutes, writing the mission into the charter before investors push back.
💰 "Any lawful purpose" is not neutral: Delaware courts read it as a fiduciary duty to maximise shareholder value, which is how Vectura sold to Philip Morris for 10 extra pence per share.
🤝 Decide who you would rather die than betray: Customers, employees or shareholders. Whoever you put first becomes the test for every startup governance decision.
🚀 Build the startup governance fortress before you need it: Protective provisions and charter purpose are easiest to install when you have five people and no investors on the cap table.
Chapters
What would Eric Ries change about The Lean Startup today
Why AI makes building cheaper but learning the real bottleneck
The meat-grinder problem that led to Incorruptible
Jeff Lawson, Twilio and the 199-day post-IPO ouster
The LTSE bathroom floor and the capitulate-or-die ultimatum
Financial gravity, explained
One customer hits 50% of revenue: what happens next
Product-market fit vs slow drift
Why startup governance matters at five people
The Public Benefit Corporation conversion in two pages
The Philip Morris thought experiment
The real Vectura sale and the 10-pence betrayal
OpenAI, structural integrity and the limits of paper governance
The 5-minute filing a founder can do this week
Lightning round and where to find Eric
Resources
Full show notes: https://saasclub.io/485
Join 5,000+ SaaS founders: https://saasclub.io/email
Episode 834 | Eric Ries Revisits The Lean Startup and Discusses How to Become Incorruptible
Is AI actually making your build-measure-learn cycle faster, or just making your work more average?
In this episode, Rob Walling talks with Eric Ries, author of The Lean Startup, to revisit what's held up in Lean Startup thinking 15 years on, why AI speeds up building but can't replace human learning, and what drove Eric to write his new book, Incorruptible. Eric also shares the story of how the Long-Term Stock Exchange nearly died before it ever launched, and why Costco is the rare example of a company that figured out how to stay incorruptible.
Topics we cover:
(3:48) – Lean Startup: 15 years later
(8:33) – How countercultural MVPs and pivots were
(11:02) – How AI changes build-measure-learn
(13:36) – Learning is still a human job
(15:43) – AI makes everyone's work more average
(17:39) – The Long-Term Stock Exchange story
(21:03) – How LTSE was nearly destroyed
(25:00) – A better definition of profit
(31:45) – Companies already living this way
(32:33) – The legend of Sol Price and Costco
(37:36) – Incorruptible: ethos plus integrity
Links from the show:
TinySeed SaaS Institute
The SaaS Playbook
Incorruptible by Eric Ries
The Lean Startup by Eric Ries
Long-Term Stock Exchange (LTSE)
Eric Ries | LinkedIn
Eric Ries (@ericries) | X
If you have questions about starting or scaling a software business that you'd like for us to cover, please submit your question for an upcoming episode. We'd love to hear from you!
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Why success destroys the companies we love, with Eric Ries
What if the way we think about business value, trust, and capitalism itself is fundamentally broken? Eric Ries’ The Lean Startup changed how a generation of entrepreneurs build companies. Now, Ries takes aim at some of the most sacred business assumptions today in his new book, Incorruptible. Ries joins Rapid Response to share what he witnessed firsthand in the clash between Anthropic and the US government, and why he believes the current system is failing the very people it's supposed to serve. He also brings in-the-trenches stories from Cloudflare, Novo Nordisk, and Whole Foods to make the case that courage, not capital, may be the most undervalued asset in business right now.
Visit the Rapid Response website here: https://www.rapidresponseshow.com/
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How to build a company that withstands any era | Eric Ries, Lean Startup author
Eric Ries is the author of The Lean Startup, a book that reshaped how a generation of founders think about building companies. His new book, Incorruptible, explains how successful companies are destroyed by failing to protect what makes them valuable, and how to change it.
In our in-depth conversation, we discuss:
1. Why 80% of venture-backed founders are ousted within three years of going public
2. The governance structures that protect companies like Anthropic, Costco, and Novo Nordisk
3. The simple legal filing that takes two pages and could save your company
4. Financial gravity: why successful companies predictably get corrupted into mediocrity
5. Why mission-aligned companies like Anthropic reap major benefits from protecting their mission through governance
6. Why success won’t protect you—it instead makes you a bigger target
—
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Episode transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-build-a-company-that-withstands
—
Archive of all Lenny's Podcast transcripts: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/yxi4s2w998p1gvtpu4193/AMdNPR8AOw0lMklwtnC0TrQ?rlkey=j06x0nipoti519e0xgm23zsn9&st=ahz0fj11&dl=0
—
Where to find Eric Ries:
• X: https://x.com/ericries
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eries
• Website: https://www.incorruptible.co
• Newsletter: https://news.theleanstartup.com/
• Podcast: https://ericriesshow.com
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theericriesshow
—
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
—
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Introduction to Eric Ries
(02:26) Introducing Incorruptible
(06:26) Protecting what you’ve built
(11:35) Why founders get ousted
(14:58) Too early, too late
(19:32) The blueprint: ethos plus integrity
(20:49) Novo Nordisk’s 100-year governance fortress
(26:41) The Vectura Group and Philip Morris
(33:16) The “harder is easier” principle
(37:22) Cloudflare’s mission emergence story
(42:43) Groupon’s email frequency death spiral
(45:37) How to define your purpose
(51:09) Mission-driven vs. mission-hopeful companies
(54:46) Integrity: structural and personal
(57:47) Shareholder primacy: the 40-year-old “natural law”
(01:00:04) Public benefit corporations: the easiest protection
(01:04:24) Downsides and objections
(01:06:08) The Anthropic example: fastest-growing company ever
(01:08:39) The torchbearers in every organization
(01:10:37) The culture bank: deposits and withdrawals
(01:12:28) OpenAI and Anthropic governance
(01:16:21) Mission guardians explained
(01:18:29) Spiritual holding companies
(01:21:53) The founder control trap
(01:25:25) Three things to do this week
(01:30:10) AI alignment and human alignment
(01:34:00) Conway’s law: org charts in architecture
(01:37:31) Book resources and farewell
—
References: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-build-a-company-that-withstands
—
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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
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Reflections on a movement | Eric Ries (creator of the Lean Startup methodology)
Eric Ries is the creator of the Lean Startup methodology, author of the New York Times bestseller The Lean Startup, and founder of the Long-Term Stock Exchange (LTSE). He’s also a multi-time founder and currently advises startups, VC firms, and larger companies on business and product strategy. In today’s episode, we discuss:
• The current state of the Lean Startup methodology
• Common misconceptions about the Lean Startup methodology
• Understanding how to actually think about MVPs (minimum viable products)
• When to pivot and when to stay the course
• Thoughts on AI and how to deal with uncertainty
• How to structure your company around core values and create products that benefit humanity
• The philosophy behind Eric’s current big idea: the Long-Term Stock Exchange
• Much more
—
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Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/reflections-on-a-movement-eric-ries-creator-of-the-lean-startup-methodology/#transcript
—
Where to find Eric Ries:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eries/
• X: https://twitter.com/ericries
• Website: https://theleanstartup.com/
—
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
—
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Eric’s background
(04:46) Eric’s recent activities and projects
(06:23) Eric’s start in advising and first-principles thinking
(10:56) Lessons from designing the Lean Startup process
(14:04) The current state of lean startup methodology
(22:33) Common misconceptions about the methodology
(24:28) Changes Eric would make in an updated version of Lean Startup
(27:52) An explanation of minimum viable product (MVP) and why Eric still stands by the process
(37:36) An example of “Less is more”
(41:24) More on MVPs and the importance of testing your hypotheses
(41:24) How LTSE had to pivot after a partnership fell apart
(48:37) Eric’s take on the concept of craft
(53:36) Why getting fired for standing by your conviction can be a career accelerator
(55:17) Tech’s mental health crisis
(56:28) Advice for founders stuck in a “zombie company”
(1:00:16) How continuous pivots shape a company’s vision, with a real-life story
(1:08:20) Challenges in assessing companies from an external perspective
(1:13:17) Practical advice for businesses considering a pivot
(1:18:42) The impact of artificial intelligence
(1:26:59) The current capabilities of ChatGPT and its potential use as an equalizer in the marketplace
(1:31:26) Eric’s current work with founders on human flourishing
(1:42:40) Advice for founders who want to build ethical companies
(1:49:37) Examples of first-principles thinking
(1:53:42) Why shareholder primacy theory is wrong
(1:55:19) The “spiritual holding company”
(1:58:12) Lightning round
—
Referenced:
• The Long-Term Stock Exchange: https://ltse.com/
• The Lean Startup: How Today’s Entrepreneurs Use Continuous Innovation to Create Radically Successful Businesses: https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Startup-Entrepreneurs-Continuous-Innovation/dp/0307887898
• Lean manufacturing: https://www.techtarget.com/searcherp/definition/lean-production
• Six Sigma: https://www.6sigma.us/six-sigma.php
• Clay Christensen: https://claytonchristensen.com/
• Eric Ries on 4 Common Misconceptions About Lean Startup: https://www.entrepreneur.com/starting-a-business/eric-ries-on-4-common-misconceptions-about-lean-startup/286701
• Anakin Skywalker meme: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/for-the-better-right
• Linear: Building with taste, craft, and focus | Karri Saarinen (co-founder, designer, CEO): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/inside-linear-building-with-taste-craft-and-focus-karri-saarinen-co-founder-designer-ceo/
• Snow Crash: https://www.amazon.com/Snow-Crash-Neal-Stephenson/dp/0553380958
• IMVU: https://about.imvu.com/
• Ben Silbermann on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/silbermann/
• Wonder Boy: Tony Hsieh, Zappos, and the Myth of Happiness in Silicon Valley: amazon.com/Wonder-Boy-Zappos-Happiness-Silicon/dp/1250829097
• Understanding Steve Jobs’s Reality Distortion Field: https://www.emexmag.com/understanding-steve-jobs-reality-distortion-field
• Paul Graham’s website:http://www.paulgraham.com/raham
• Segment: https://segment.com/
• Loom: https://www.loom.com/
• The Slack story: https://www.paperflite.com/blogs/slack-story
• The Social Network on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/ca/title/70132721
• Thomas Kuhn: Paradigm Shift: https://www.simplypsychology.org/kuhn-paradigm.html
• Conway’s Law: the little-known principle that influences your work more than you think: https://www.atlassian.com/blog/teamwork/what-is-conways-law-acmi
• Monty Python and the Holy Grail Guards Scene on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVWH01E2weA
• Toyota Production System: https://global.toyota/en/company/vision-and-philosophy/production-system/
• Warren Buffett’s Forbes bio: https://www.forbes.com/profile/warren-buffett
• The Enlightened Capitalists: Cautionary Tales of Business Pioneers Who Tried to Do Well by Doing Good: amazon.com/Enlightened-Capitalists-Cautionary-Business-Pioneers/dp/0062880241
• The Grace of Kings (The Dandelion Dynasty): https://www.amazon.com/Grace-Kings-Dandelion-Dynasty/dp/148142428
• All Systems Red: The Murderbot Diaries: https://www.amazon.com/All-Systems-Red-Murderbot-Diaries/dp/0765397536
• Star Wars: Andor on Disney+: https://www.disneyplus.com/series/star-wars-andor/3xsQKWG00GL5
• Tesla Powerwall: https://www.tesla.com/powerwall
• Levoit Classic 300S ultrasonic smart humidifier: https://www.amazon.com/LEVOIT-Humidifiers-Ultrasonic-Essential-Customized/dp/B09C24TYGQ
• The Law of Sustainable Growth: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20121015181612-2157554-the-law-of-sustainable-growth/
—
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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe
A stock market for social justice | ZigZag
On this episode of ZigZag, host Manoush Zomorodi is joined by Eric Ries, who went from writing Silicon Valley's bible to building a stock market for social justice. Together, they examine why quarterly earnings reports cause anti-social behavior and how a new stock exchange in the US might present a systemic solution. As Eric says, this "will serve as inspiration to a new generation of civic entrepreneurs who will say: We don't have to take the institutions of our society as a given. We could try to build new and better ones." ZigZag, the business show about being human, is now a member of the TED family of podcasts. Listen or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
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Build. Measure. Learn, w/Eric Ries of The Lean Startup and the LTSE
Forget writing that business plan. Design an experiment instead. So many products and companies fail because the assumptions in their beautiful business plans were just wrong. So stop writing and start testing. No one knows this better than Eric Ries, author of The Lean Startup and founder of the Long-Term Stock Exchange. After his first product failed, he developed a new method of product design based on running small, fast experiments, measuring the results, and learning from them. It’s a system built on data, not assumptions, and it works with almost everything, from app development to airplane design. It starts with establishing your own measure of success — then experimenting, improving, and trying over and over again. The feedback loop never stops.
Learn more about the Long Term Stock Exchange: ltse.com
Learn more about The Lean Startup: leanstartup.co
Read Eric’s blog, Startup Lessons Learned: startuplessonslearned.com
Listen to Eric’s new podcast, Out of the Crisis, on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/out-of-the-crisis/id1505392824
Read a transcript of this episode at https://mastersofscale.com
Subscribe to the Masters of Scale weekly newsletter at https://mastersofscale.com/subscribe
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E1041: The Lean Startup’s Eric Ries gives tactical advice for founders during an economic downturn: obligations of leadership, extending runway, handling layoffs with grace, finding new revenue opportunities, capitalizing on silver-linings & more!
0:52 Jason intros Eric Ries and they discuss how things have been since shelter-in-place started
8:33 What good will come out of this? Will UBI proponents like Andrew Yang be proven right?
10:12 Eric's advice to today's founders after living through the 2008 recession & the dot-com bust
15:53 Eric describes the obligations of leaders during a crisis of this magnitude, what the test-and-trace method is and how it's effective
25:02 Do authoritarian countries have an advantage in handling outbreaks better than democratic countries?
28:45 Jason & Eric reminisce about 2011 in startup-land
30:38 Tactical advice for Founders in an economic downturn
39:52 Eric explains what he is doing to help at: https://schoolclosures.org/
44:11 What is the Long-Term Stock Exchange?
48:57 Thoughts on private companies giving equity options to contractors
53:00 More tactical insights for founders: handling layoffs, figuring out new revenue opportunities, capitalizing on silver-linings, extending runway, etc.
1:01:01 Amazon & Lyft partnering to help each other, Bird's layoff approach, extending runway by trading cash for equity
1:12:21 Eric's thoughts on the future of capitalism
The Lean Startup and the Long-Term Stock Exchange (with Eric Ries)
Season 5, Episode 10: The Lean Startup and the Long-Term Stock Exchange (with Eric Ries)
Acquired closes out Season 5 and 2019 with a radical look into both the past and future decades of startup company building, investing and - yes, exiting - in conversation with legendary Lean Startup author Eric Ries. Nine years on from pioneering the now-canonical concepts of product-market fit, minimum viable products, and pivots during the aftermath of the financial crisis, Eric’s new venture at the Long-Term Stock Exchange represents an equally ambitious attempt to rewrite the orthodoxy of how companies and their investors manage liquidity, governance and alignment around longterm value creation. Like Lean Startup a decade before it, can LTSE help address some of the endemic problems in this generation’s startup ecosystem — excessive capital raising, stay-private-longer, dual-class founder hegemony, extreme illiquidity and quarterly earnings myopia? Tune in to find out!
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Recode Decode: Long-Term Stock Exchange founder Eric Ries (Live at Code 2019)
Eric Ries, the founder of the Long-Term Stock Exchange and author of The Lean Startup, talks with Vox.com's Ezra Klein at the 2019 Code Conference.
In this episode: The LTSE’s recent SEC approval; what’s the point of a stock exchange and why do we need a new one?; the problem with short-term public markets; how would going public on the LTSE be different for CEOs?; how things would change for employees?; the culture of short-term vs. long-term leadership ownership; the values of “Lean Startups”; what public companies and markets could learn from those values; how to attach companies to more stakeholders; The Enlightened Capitalists and the history of business reform; would the LTSE penalize short-term investors?; and Wall Street’s impatience with R&D.
Recode Decode has been nominated for best technology podcast in this year’s People’s Choice Podcast Awards! Cast your vote for Recode Decode at https://www.podcastawards.com/app/signup before July 31st. One vote per category.
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20VC: The Lean Startup's Eric Ries on The Missing Function of Entrepreneurship in Most Companies, Creating A New Accountability Paradigm & How To Structure Promotions and Compensation In The New Structure
Eric Ries is the author of International Bestseller, The Lean Startup, which changed the language of business introducing terms such as A/B testing, MVP and "pivoting". The book has sold over 1m copies and been translated into over 130 languages launching a global "lean startup" movement. Eric is also the author of the recently released, The Startup Way, detailing transformations at tech titans such as Facebook and Amazon, providing a framework for entrepreneurial management. In addition, Eric is also the Founder & CEO of The Long-Term Stock Exchange and has served as an EiR at the likes of Harvard Business School, IDEO and Pivotal.
In Today's Episode You Will Learn:
1.) What is the origin story of "The Lean Startup" and Eric's realizations for the importance of the methodologies presented in the book?
2.) What is the matrix management structure? In which cases does it work well? Where does the traditional structure fall down? How does this affect how startups should think about their structure from day 1?
3.) Why does Eric believe that "we have to create a new accountability paradigm"? Why does Eric believe that most organizations have a pathological fear of failure? How is this conveyed in their structure? What are the consequent dangers of this fear? What does a "productive failure" look like?
4.) How does Eric view the creation and maintenance of culture? How exactly does Eric define culture and what it is to a company? Why does Eric not believe in manifestos!
5.)How can employees determine how committed their employer is to enacting these policies? How can this be reflected in the company attitude to budget? Why does Eric believe that each element of the organization should have independent fluctuating budgets?
Items Mentioned In Today's Show:
Eric's Fave Book: Ancillary Justice
Eric's Fave Blog: Kickstarter Blog
As always you can follow Harry, The Twenty Minute VC and Eric on Twitter here!
Likewise, you can follow Harry on Snapchat here for mojito madness and all things 20VC.
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a16z Podcast: Beyond Lean Startups
What began as a scientific approach to creating and managing startups has now become a worldwide movement for companies of all sizes -- and for creating (or rather rediscovering) entrepreneurs in all places. Not just inside startups, not just for software, and not just inside Silicon Valley. It's about unlocking human creativity everywhere. Perhaps even reinventing the firm.
As utopian as that sounds, Eric Ries -- who pioneered the lean startup movement and wrote the definitive book on it -- argues the case in this episode of the a16z Podcast. But has it become too much of a religion? One where people apply the letter of, but not the spirit, behind lean startup principles?
Ries, who recently crowdsourced a leader's guide for practitioners to test and evolve the very concepts he first published 5 years ago, shares lessons learned -- as well as the true meaning of overused terms like 'MVP' and 'pivot'. Ultimately, lean startups are about how to make decisions and build new products under conditions of high uncertainty. Without having to chisel the principles into stone tablets.
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Please note that the content here is for informational purposes only; should NOT be taken as legal, business, tax, or investment advice or be used to evaluate any investment or security; and is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any a16z fund. a16z and its affiliates may maintain investments in the companies discussed. For more details please see a16z.com/disclosures.
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Maker Stories: Episode 10 w/ Eric Ries
Eric Ries is the author of Lean Startup, which has since become almost gospel in the startup world. We have a great chat about writing, career strategy, lean startup philosophy, and much more. Eric’s book, The Leader's Guide, was also a first selection for the product hunt book club. Stay tuned for more about Product Hunt Books. Edited by Jenna Weiss Berman
Stack Exchange Podcast - Episode #24 w/ Eric Ries
Stack Exchange Podcast - Episode #24 w/ Eric Ries by The Stack Overflow Podcast
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