Perps are coming onshore. CFTC Chairman Mike Selig joins David to unpack the first U.S.-regulated Bitcoin perpetual futures contract, the end of regulation by enforcement, and what comes next for Coinbase, Kalshi, Kraken, Gemini, Hyperliquid, Lighter, and the broader U.S. perp market. They also discuss which assets could list next, how U.S. leverage will differ from offshore exchanges, and why equity perps, RWAs, and 24/7 trading may be the next frontier of American finance.
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---
TIMESTAMPS
0:00 Intro
3:32 Self-Certified Crypto Contracts
7:08 Chasing the U.S. Perps Market
9:00 Bringing Liquidity Onshore
10:18 U.S. Market Guardrails
12:44 Blockchain Transparency Advantage
19:17 Hyperliquid and Onchain Perps
23:09 Real-World Asset Perps
24:38 Equity Perps & SEC
26:35 Incumbents Versus Disruptors
31:28 Derivatives Dominating Crypto
33:16 Perps Are Just Beginning
---
RESOURCES
CFTC Chair Mike Selig
https://x.com/ChairmanSelig
---
Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here:
https://www.bankless.com/disclosures
This week, CFTC Chair Michael Selig joins the show to discuss the CFTC's recent policy announcement on perps in the U.S. We deep dive into how to regulate crypto in the U.S, prediction markets, 24/7 markets, working with the SEC and more. Enjoy!
--
Follow Michael: https://x.com/MichaelSelig
Follow Rob: https://x.com/HadickM
Follow Empire: https://x.com/theempirepod
--
Robots will soon outnumber humans onchain. peaqOS turns them into a new trusted liquid asset class, with yield tied to real-world workloads. It gives robots all they need to do business on any chain — and lets humans earn from automation. Explore the Machine Economy: https://peaq.xyz
--
Timestamps:
(00:00) Introduction
(04:20) Working With The SEC
(08:40) Bringing Perps To The U.S
(19:03) peaq Ad
(19:49) How To Regulate DeFi?
(26:08) Becoming The Crypto Capital of The World
(29:10) Prediction Markets
(45:28) 24/7 Capital Markets
(56:39) The Clarity Act
(01:00:14) Final Thoughts
--
Disclaimer: Nothing said on Empire is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions, not financial advice. Santiago, Jason, Rob and our guests may hold positions in the companies, funds, or projects discussed.
(0:00) Jason and Chamath welcome SEC's Paul Atkins and CFTC's Michael Selig
(0:53) Atkins on how US markets have changed over his 40 year career
(3:04) Top priorities across both agencies: Fixing the IPO drought, crypto regulation, cutting unnecessary rules
(8:16) AI trading bots, autonomous hedge funds, and investing with leverage
(15:30) Ending the "Turf War" between the SEC and CFTC, super app vision
(19:15) Prediction markets, insider trading, gray area
(26:56) Trump advocates for changing quarterly earnings to bi-annual
(30:30) Changing the accreditation rules a priority for 2026
(34:56) HFT firms that dominate the futures markets, swap reporting
(40:36) VC fund formation
(46:18) US markets vs the world, crypto classification
(52:54) Biggest risks: Market manipulation, crypto scams, and the Gen Z gambling crisis
SEC Chair Paul Atkins:
https://x.com/SECPaulSAtkins
CFTC Chair Michael Selig:
https://x.com/ChairmanSelig
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A conversation with new CFTC Chairman Mike Selig on the policy shift behind America’s push to become the crypto capital of the world.
We cover the CFTC’s evolving role in crypto, prediction markets, and perpetuals, the end of regulation by enforcement, how the agency is thinking about DeFi and software developers, and why market structure legislation like the Clarity Act could reshape the future of U.S. crypto.
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------
TIMESTAMPS
0:00 Intro
0:33 Mike’s Background
4:25 Commodity Markets Transformation
7:31 Commodity Definition
10:56 The Role of the CFTC
11:56 Prediction Markets
17:48 Navigating New Markets
20:34 Are Prediction Markets CFTC Territory?
24:45 Insider Trading vs Information Advantage
28:25 Trump’s Conflict of Interests
29:21 Clarity Act
36:58 Project Crypto
39:37 Defining Intermediary
43:32 Exchanges vs L2s
45:50 No More Wells Notices
50:17 The New CFTC & SEC
54:51 Making America the Crypto Capital of the World
57:08 Best of the Clarity Act
59:04 Closing & Disclaimers
------
RESOURCES
Mike Selig
https://x.com/ChairmanSelig
CFTC
https://www.cftc.gov/
------
Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here:
https://www.bankless.com/disclosures
We are rapidly entering a world in which there are odds on virtually everything. During the recent Super Bowl, the big prediction market platforms didn't just offer bets on the game itself, but also on more exotic facets, such as the first song that Bad Bunny would sing, even who would join Bad Bunny in the performance. And while a lot of people thinks this looks like gambling, it's actually regulated by the CFTC, an agency created in the 1970s to regulate derivatives. On this episode, we speak with new CFTC Chairman Michael Selig, who was nominated by President Trump and took his position in December. We talk to him about his philosophy, and why it is that these new bets are regulated as financial instruments, rather than gambling products. We talk about the tension that emerges when 18-year-olds can place bets on sports via prediction markets, even though in many states have laws on sports gambling, either banning it outright, or requiring participants to be at least 21. We also talk about crypto regulation, and whether perpetual futures -- which have exploded in the crypto space -- could soon be coming to traditional markets.
Read more:Jump Trading Poised to Gain Stakes in Kalshi and PolymarketGambling Stocks Sag as Prediction Markets Steal Super Bowl Bets
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President Donald Trump's pick for chair, Mike Selig, has cleared the Senate Agriculture Committee just as lawmakers look set to hand over crypto oversight to the agency.
In this episode, former CFTC Chair Chris Giancarlo joins Unchained Executive Editor Steven Ehrlich to unpack Selig's Senate hearing. Chris shares his experience working with Mike, why the CFTC should get more resources to handle crypto and crypto's unique commodity trading structure.
He also touches on the challenges the agency could face regulating crypto, whether exchanges should be allowed to continue performing several functions under one umbrella, the timeline for CLARITY and the regulatory path ahead for prediction markets.
Host:
Steve Ehrlich, Executive Editor at Unchained
Guest:
J. Christopher Giancarlo, Former Commissioner of the CTFC
Links:
Unchained:
Prospective CFTC Chair Says It’s ‘Vitally Important to Have a Cop On The Beat’ in Crypto
Senate Committee Shares Bipartisan Draft on Crypto Market Structure Bill
The Chopping Block: When Wall Street Meets DeFi — How Equity Perps and RWAs Redefine Leverage On-Chain
DEX in the City: Are Prediction Markets Gambling, and Who Should Regulate Them?
Polymarket Quietly Relaunches in U.S. in Beta Mode: Report
Timestamps:
🚀 00:00 Introduction
⚡️1:41 Chris details his experience working with Mike Selig
🤔 6:34 Does the CFTC have enough resources to handle crypto?
📽 10:34 Crypto’s unique commodity trading structure
🧱 13:37 The challenges the CFTC could face with crypto's unique trading structure
🤔 15:15 Should crypto exchanges remain vertically integrated?
💡17:25 How DeFi should be regulated
🧏 20:46 Why Chris says crypto perps do not need new laws
🔮 24:49 Mike's confirmation timeline
💥 25:46 Why prediction markets are important
👀 27:57 Why Chris compares the regulatory trajectory of prediction markets to Uber
💡 28:57 What regulations could look like for prediction markets
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The election of Donald Trump marked a sea change for U.S. crypto policy.
The symbolism of that transformation was on full display at the White House’s first-ever Crypto Summit, at which President Trump met with several crypto business leaders. But what was actually said behind closed doors? And does this mark the beginning of a truly pro-crypto shift—or just another short-lived political move?
In this episode, BitGo CEO Mike Belshe and former CFTC Chairman Chris Giancarlo break down what really happened at the summit, whether the proposed Bitcoin reserve is a smart idea or a political gimmick, and why some believe the U.S. dollar could one day be backed by BTC.
Visit our website for breaking news, analysis, op-eds, articles to learn about crypto, and much more: unchainedcrypto.com
Thank you to our sponsors!
Bitwise
Guests:
Mike Belshe, CEO at BitGo
Chris Giancarlo, Senior counsel at Willkie Farr & Gallagher and former CFTC chairman
Links
Recent coverage of Unchained on the Bitcoin Reserve and the White House Crypto Summit :
Trump Says He Is Ending Operation Choke Point 2.0
Trump Establishes Strategic Bitcoin Reserve and Digital Asset Stockpile
Trump's Surprise Crypto Reserve Announcement Iced Out D.C. Insiders
How Did Ripple Sell Trump on XRP in a Crypto Reserve? By Pushing for Solana
Why Trump May Have Chosen This Week to Announce a Strategic Crypto Reserve
Which Crypto Assets Belong in a Reserve? This VC Says Not XRP and ADA
Chris’s article: Crypto neo-privateers could be the solution to hacks
Nic Carter’s tweet on Trump’s crypto endeavours
Omid Malekan’s analogy of the SBR with buying a shirt
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
With Paul Atkins as the incoming SEC Chair, David Sacks as the AI & Crypto Czar, and potential CFTC leadership changes, the Trump administration is signaling a major shift for crypto, AI, and financial regulation.
Guests Mike Selig and Jake Chervinsky break down what this means for token launches, enforcement actions, inter-agency collaboration, and the fate of Operation Chokepoint 2.0. Could this mark the end of the U.S.’s regulatory hostility toward innovation?
Show highlights:
02:18-What changes to expect under an Atkins-led SEC
08:58-Who could lead the SEC in the period between Gensler resigning and Atkins assuming
11:54-Whether the Democrats will nominate SEC Commissioner Crenshaw again
15:50-Elizabeth Warren's influence on the non-Republican SEC commissioner picks
23:39-Whether Atkins’ leadership at the SEC might shift crypto regulation away from aggressive enforcement
28:26-Whether Gensler’s recent promotion of people in enforcement roles will further his SEC’s regulation-by-enforcement strategy
38:52-Whether the SEC and Coinbase will reach a settlement
41:47-Why Mike and Jake think it’s not likely that the SEC will pursue litigation in the Ripple case
46:03-How the SEC might clarify securities laws around token sales, airdrops, and exemptions
55:14-Whether Atkins’ leadership could fast-track Hester Peirce’s Safe Harbor
59:53-How the CFTC's potential lead on crypto regulation might redefine how it splits duties with the SEC
1:03:03-Whether it even makes sense to have two financial regulatory agencies
1:11:00-Who might lead the CFTC
1:13:59-Why Jake and Mike believe combining AI and crypto under one ‘czar’ makes sense
1:20:31-How the appointment of Scott Bessent for Treasury secretary will affect the crypto industry
1:25:47-How the likely end to Operation Chokepoint 2.0 will create a “sea change”
Visit our website for breaking news, analysis, op-eds, articles to learn about crypto, and much more: unchainedcrypto.com
Thank you to our sponsors!
Polkadot
Robinhood & Arbitrum
Kelp DAO
Guests:
Mike Selig, Partner at Willkie Farr & Gallagher
Previous appearance on Unchained: Is Gary Gensler on a Mission to Put Crypto Down for Good?
Jake Chervinsky, Chief Legal Officer at Variant
Previous appearances on Unchained:
The US vs. Crypto: Jake Chervinsky on Crypto's Legal and Regulatory Status
Why the SEC vs. Ripple Order Is Now About 2 Things: Coinbase and Congress
The Chopping Block: Jake Chervinsky on How the SEC Has Lost Credibility
All Things Crypto Regulation With Jake Chervinsky
Everything You Need to Know About the Looming Battle Over Privacy in Crypto
Can Crypto Be a Force in the Midterms? Yes, Say Kristin Smith and Jake Chervinsky
Links
Trump’s Office Picks:
Unchained:
Why Trump’s SEC Chair Pick, Paul Atkins, Is So Positive for Crypto
David Sacks as A.I. & Crypto Czar? Why the Industry Was Surprised
Trump Taps Paul Atkins for Next SEC Chair, Making Good on His Crypto Promises
Democratic SEC Commissioner Is Stepping Down, but That Doesn’t Mean Trump Will Get 2 Outright Picks
Trump Taps Hedge Fund Manager Scott Bessent to Be Treasury Secretary
A Degen Administration? Why the Crypto Czar May Be Allowed to Own Tokens
Tracking Trump’s Cabinet and Staff Nominations
Congressional Results
John Reed Stark’s tweet:“current SEC Chair Gary Gensler is quietly working behind the scenes to lead the SEC from the grave”
Operation Chokepoint 2.0
Forbes: How ‘Debanking’ Tech And Crypto Companies Could Kill Businesses
Marc Andreessen and the CFPB: Debunking the Debanking Debunkers by Nic Carter
Unchained: Regulators Are Limiting Banks Serving Crypto Clients. Does That Violate the Law?
Unchained: Killed By Politics, Ex-Diem Boss Says of Meta’s Stablecoin
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In this episode, Laura Shin speaks with former CFTC chairman Chris Giancarlo and former CFTC chief innovation officer Daniel Gorfine on the pressing need for the U.S. to safeguard the dollar. They explain why they believe the future of regulation is the government operating nodes on blockchains rather than regulating intermediaries, why even private USD stablecoins will want a USD central bank digital currency, and how China might export the technology behind the digital yuan—and its surveillance capabilities—to other countries. They also touch on how the upcoming U.S. elections could influence crypto policy, why stablecoins are more than just trading instruments, and what the U.S. must do to maintain its financial leadership.
Show highlights:
How governments should embrace blockchain technology to become better at its job, according to Chris
How the financial system needs to change for the younger generations
Whether the U.S. is losing ground in terms of innovation
Why Daniel thinks stablecoins are much more than a trading instrument for crypto
Why Daniel believes that the U.S. is making the regulation of stablecoins “far more complicated than it needs to be”
How Singapore is already giving licenses to USD stablecoin issuers
Whether the dollar should be trademarked to protect it
How Tether has become one of the most profitable companies per employee in history without being under U.S. jurisdiction
Who should be the next chair of the SEC and the need to regulate DeFi in order for it to become mainstream
Why Daniel thinks that some of the criticism of the FIT21 bill “doesn’t hold water”
Why Chris believes that China is lying about not intending to export the technology behind the digital yuan
Whether algorithmic stablecoins should be banned, as proposed in the Lummis-Gillibrand bill
Visit our website for breaking news, analysis, op-eds, articles to learn about crypto, and much more: unchainedcrypto.com
First Bits + Bips episode: Bits + Bips: Does Macroeconomics Point to a Potential Crypto Supercycle?
Thank you to our sponsors!
Polkadot
VaultCraft
Guests:
Chris Giancarlo, Former Chairman of the US Commodity Futures Trading Commission, author of CryptoDad
Forbes: ‘Elizabeth Warren’s Anti-Crypto Wing Is A Shrinking Iceberg’, Says Former Top Regulator
FoxBusiness Interview: Elizabeth Warren and others have declared war on cryptocurrency: Chris Giancarlo
Op-ed in the FT Banking Risk & Regulation: Can CBDCs be made safe for democracy?
Daniel Gorfine, Founder & CEO of boutique advisory firm Gattaca Horizons, former Chief Innovation Officer at the U.S. CFTC, and adjunct professor at the Georgetown University Law Center
Opinion: Stablecoin and other digital assets are falsely framed as a choice between personal privacy and national security. We can have both. - MarketWatch
Building digital infrastructure for the future of finance
Links
Stablecoins:
Stablecoins Are Defense Tech by Morgan Beller
Unchained:
Opinion: Regulated Dollar Stablecoins Created by a Proposed New Senate Bill Would be Crypto’s Ultimate Trojan Horse
Tether's Record $4.5 Billion Q1 Profit Highlights Its Dominance of the Stablecoin Industry
SAB 121
Unchained: President Biden Vetoes SAB121 Repeal
FIT21
Unchained: FIT21 Bill Heads to The Senate: Should We Really Be Excited?
Spot Ether ETFs
Unchained: Analysts Up Odds of Spot Ether ETF to 75% as Prometheum Launches Product That Treats ETH as a Security
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✨ Mint the episode on Zora ✨
https://zora.co/collect/zora:0x0c294913a7596b427add7dcbd6d7bbfc7338d53f/6
------
🎬 DEBRIEF | Ryan & David unpacking the episode:
https://www.bankless.com/debrief-the-timothy-massad-interview
------
Are stablecoins a threat to national security? How should the US government step in?
We brought Timothy Massad, the perfect guest to help us answer these hard questions. He was the Obama appointed chair for the CFTC, the guy who helped designate Bitcoin as a commodity over 10 years ago.
We touch on:
- The importance of stablecoins.
- How stablecoins compare to eurodollars.
- Weather crypto and sanctions can co-exist.
- A sensible policy for stablecoins.
- And finally, his thoughts on what happens next.
Timothy brings a whole different perspective from what we’re used to in our crypto bubble. That’s exactly why you should tune into this episode.
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------
TIMESTAMPS
0:00 Intro
6:34 Timothy’s Background
9:30 Security vs Commodity
12:46 Stablecoin First Impressions
21:42 The Importance of Stablecoins
28:26 History of the Eurodollar
38:46 Economic Sanctions
47:47 Stablecoins and Sanctions
1:08:59 A Stablecoin Future
1:13:37 A CBDC Future
1:18:49 What about Privacy?
1:20:58 The Role of the Dollar
1:23:18 Stablecoins Abroad
1:25:43 Predictions
1:28:10 Closing & Disclaimers
------
RESOURCES
Timothy Massad
https://x.com/timmassad
Stablecoins and National Security by Timothy Massad
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/stablecoins-and-national-security-learning-the-lessons-of-eurodollars/
Five Perspectives on Stablecoins by Nic Carter
https://medium.com/@nic__carter/five-perspectives-on-stablecoins-5bc20076270a
------
Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here:
https://www.bankless.com/disclosures
Brian Quintenz is the Global Head of Policy at a16z crypto and a former commissioner at the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission.
In this episode, Quintenz explains how the SEC's failure to issue updated guidance for the crypto industry has created a legislative opportunity for clarity.
According to Quintenz, "Congress needs to show the way by creating the framework that the SEC is refusing to contemplate."
Outline:
0:36 Policy & regulation overview
2:43 Securities v. commodities
06:37 Registered securities
11:58 Special Purpose Broker-Dealers
14:49 a16z’s policy uutlook
18:34 Ponzi schemes
21:31 CeFi regulation
27:16 Lummis x Gillibrand’s crypto bill
30:30 Token decentralization
32:32 Legislative hurdles
A U.S court has ruled that XRP is not a security, and if XRP is a security then what implications does this have for other tokens?
Joining us today is Paul Grewal and Mike Selig, both experts in their respective fields who are here to help walk us through the implications of this court decision and what it means for our industry as a whole. ------ 🚀 Join Ryan & David at Permissionless in September. Bankless Citizens get 30% off. 🚀 https://bankless.cc/GoToPermissionless
------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS:
🐙KRAKEN | MOST-TRUSTED CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://k.xyz/bankless-pod-q2
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🗣️TOKU | CRYPTO EMPLOYMENT SOLUTION https://bankless.cc/Toku
⚖️ ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum
🦄UNISWAP | ON-CHAIN MARKETPLACE https://bankless.cc/uniswap
🛞MANTLE | MODULAR LAYER 2 NETWORK https://bankless.cc/Mantle
----- TIMESTAMPS:
0:00 Intro 4:18 Great Day to Be a Lawyer 7:47 Was This a Surprise? 9:27 TLDR on the Ripple Case 16:08 What is a Security? 20:18 How Binding is This Decision? 27:05 Establishing a Precedent 31:47 SEC's Argument Falling Apart? 38:28 Opening The Door to More Tokens 42:37 What Does This Mean for Token Holders? 47:57 How Does This Impact US Regulation? 53:29 The Fight Ahead
----- RESOURCES:
Mike Selig https://twitter.com/MikeSeligEsq
Paul Grewal https://twitter.com/iampaulgrewal
----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research.
Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures
In the SEC’s push to rein in the crypto sector, one question looms large: Is ETH a security? Dan Berkovitz, a former CFTC commissioner and SEC general counsel, and Colin Lloyd, a partner at law firm Sullivan & Cromwell, assess the current state of the regulatory turf war in the U.S., shedding light on some of Washington’s unanswered questions.
Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Stitcher, Castbox, Google Podcasts, TuneIn, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform.
Show highlights:
how an asset can be both a commodity and a security
what it means that bitcoin and ether were listed as non-security futures
whether The Merge may have changed regulators’ views on the classification of ETH
who would be responsible for determining that ETH is a security
what Colin and Dan say about ETH being a security or not
what would happen if any regulator, be it the CFTC or SEC, determined that ETH is a security
how and whether DeFi applications should be regulated
why it is important to consider the “human initiative” behind DeFi platforms
the implications of having a technology that allows for the sale of securities without an intermediary
the implications of the SEC’s proposal to change the definition of an exchange
how new technologies were integrated with the regulatory system in the past and how that differs from the current approach of the SEC
the problems of trying to regulate a technology that’s changing so fast
how other jurisdictions have been taking a more proactive approach to regulating digital assets
Thank you to our sponsors!
Crypto.com
Guests:
Dan Berkovitz, former General Counsel at the SEC and former Commissioner at the CFTC.
Previous appearance on Unchained: Can a DeFi Smart Contract Be Regulated? Two CFTC Commissioners Discuss
Colin Lloyd, partner at Sullivan & Cromwell
Previous coverage of Unchained on crypto regulation:
‘Is ETH a Security?’ Why Gary Gensler Couldn’t Give Congress a Straight Answer
Coinbase's Legal Action Against the SEC: How It Will Likely Unfold
Rep. Emmer on Why He Believes Gary Gensler Is a ‘Bad-Faith Regulator’
Is the Government Trying to Kill Off Crypto in the US?
Coinbase’s Top Lawyer Calls SEC Wells Notice a ‘Massive Overreach’
Links
CoinDesk:
U.S. SEC Moves Toward DeFi Oversight as It Reopens Proposed Regulations
SEC Chair Gensler Declines to Say if Ether Is a Security in Contentious Congressional Hearing
Bloomberg: CFTC Chair Rostin Behnam on the Fight to Regulate Crypto
Unchained:
SEC Chair Gary Gensler Avoids Question: ‘Is Ethereum a Security?’
SEC Sues Bittrex, Names Dash, Algorand and Other Tokens ‘Crypto Asset Securities’
Coinbase Seeks to Compel SEC Response to Rulemaking Petition
SEC Asks Court to Deny Coinbase Demand for Crypto Rules
Financial Institutions Hub: SEC Proposal Targets Crypto Exchanges, Trading Platforms, and Brokers
Emmer and Soto Introduce Bipartisan Bill to Provide Regulatory Clarity for Digital Assets
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We're still in the middle of a "crypto winter" with the price of coins well off their highs from back in 2021. But debates over how to regulate them are heating up, with significant disagreements among US politicians and agency chiefs. At the recent ISDA Annual General Meeting, we sat down with CFTC Chief Rostin Behnam to talk about his view on crypto rules and more. Among the things we discussed are what constitutes a security or a commodity, market structure questions, new types of betting markets, and other matters currently facing the CFTC.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Brian Quintenz, head of policy for a16z crypto, and Nic Carter, general partner at Castle Island Ventures, talk about Operation Choke Point 2.0, the relationship between the government and the crypto industry, the status of different tokens as securities or commodities, and potential future developments in the space
Show highlights:
what the original Operation Choke Point was like
the "evidence" that shows that Operation Choke Point 2.0 against crypto is real, according to Nic
how hard it is for crypto companies to get banked in the U.S.
whether crypto had anything to do with the current banking crisis
whether agencies such as the CFTC and the SEC are performing coordinated action against the industry
how the collapse of FTX changed the approach of banking regulators toward crypto
whether the U.S. needs to change its regulatory approach to maintain its status as a global leader
whether crypto is a threat to the U.S. dollar and the financial system
how Tether has benefited from the recent regulatory events
why Brian says that the SEC has already demonstrated that BTC and – also ETH -- are not securities
Thank you to our sponsors!
Crypto.com
Halborn
Guests:
Brian Quintenz, head of policy for a16z crypto
Nic Carter, general partner at Castle Island Ventures
Did The Government Start A Global Financial Crisis In An Attempt To Destroy Crypto?
Operation Choke Point 2.0 Is Underway, And Crypto Is In Its Crosshairs
Previous coverage of Unchained on the banking situation:
Jim Bianco on Why the Banking System Has Always Been Broken
The Fed Is In Checkmate: What Will Powell Do?
The Fall of SVB: What Happened and How It Affects Crypto
Previous coverage of Unchained on the recent regulatory crackdown:
Why the CFTC Case Against Binance Will Have Very Important Consequences for Crypto
Coinbase’s Top Lawyer Calls SEC Wells Notice a ‘Massive Overreach’
Links
NYMAG: Barney Frank Talks More About the Surprise Shuttering of Signature Bank
Unchained:
Was Signature Bank Actually Insolvent?
Regulators Close Signature Bank Following SVB Collapse
CFTC Sues Binance and CZ Over US Regulatory Violations
CoinDesk Editorial: It Sure Looks Like the U.S. Is Trying to Kill Crypto
The Administration’s Roadmap to Mitigate Cryptocurrencies’ Risks | NEC | The White House
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Mike Selig, counsel at Willkie Farr, has plenty to talk about this week, with a slew of actions from Gary Gensler’s SEC putting the future of crypto in the U.S. in question. From Kraken’s custodial staking settlement to action against BUSD issuer Paxos, the former CFTC law clerk voices concern that coordination among regulators could choke off the industry’s growth. Hear how Selig thinks Gensler’s SEC is working to bring crypto markets “within the regulatory perimeter.”
Show highlights:
whether regulators are using the FTX case to go against crypto as a whole
what likely caused the NYDFS action against Paxos for BUSD
whether there’s a coordinated effort to undermine the crypto markets
how issuers could argue that stablecoins aren’t securities
why there are limited implications for staking as a whole after Kraken’s SEC settlement
how the regulators are “discouraging access and participation in crypto markets at the banking level”
the differences between Gary Gensler’s SEC and that of his predecessor, Jay Clayton
how the Gensler administration is skeptical of governance and DAOs
why the SEC’s crypto custody rule proposal is refreshing, albeit not perfect
Thank you to our sponsors!
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Guest
Mike Selig, counsel at Willkie Farr
Twitter
Links
Unchained:
Circle Told NYDFS That Paxos-Issued BUSD Wasn’t Fully Backed
SEC Wants Tougher Rules for Crypto Custody
CoinDesk: SEC Proposal Could Bar Investment Advisers From Keeping Assets at Crypto Firms
WSJ: Crypto Firm Paxos Faces SEC Lawsuit Over Binance USD Token
Regulator Orders Crypto Firm Paxos to Stop Issuing Binance Stablecoin - WSJ
The Block: SEC action against Paxos paints regulatory target on stablecoins
Tom Wan on the ramifications of Paxos being ordered to stop issuing BUSD
Bloomberg: US Crackdown Seeks to Push Crypto Back to the Fringes of Finance
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In today's episode, Ryan and David bring on Mike Selig to chat about everything need to know about crypto regulation. Mike is a crypto lawyer at Willkie Farr & Gallagher, former a regulator at the CFTC, and a frequent contributor to Coindesk about the state of crypto regulation.
Operation Chokepoint is in full effect. Tune in to understand everything you need to know.
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------ Timestamps:
0:00 Intro 6:18 2023 Regulation Playbook 7:15 SEC Charging Kraken 11:27 SEC Rolling Out Regulation 14:09 SEC Patronizing Approach 15:44 Wells Notice 19:45 Kaken Staking Crackdown 28:00 Driving Crypto Offshore 30:05 Staking Pools Next? 35:05 SEC Scoring Points 40:50 Paxos & BUSD 44:40 Circle 50:55 Banks Servicing the Crypto Industry 57:55 Net Effects 59:27 U.S. Crypto Regulation History 1:02:49 Why the U.S. Hates Crypto 1:06:26 Banks vs. Crypto 1:08:14 Will Crypto Survive? 1:10:25 Closing & Disclaimers
------ Resources:
Regulation vs. Decentralization https://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazine/2022/12/23/2023-the-year-of-regulation-vs-decentralization/
Gensler Statement https://twitter.com/SquawkCNBC/status/1624041483241156608
----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research.
Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures
Yesterday, on the show we had lawyer Brian Frye, who gave us novel takes securities. You can find that episode here: https://youtu.be/jo1ZuhuCVZE
In today's episode, David continues down the securities rabbit hole with special guest Mike Selig. Mike is a crypto lawyer at Willkie Farr & Gallagher, former a regulator at the CFTC and a frequent contributor to Coindesk about the state of crypto regulation.
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------ Topics Covered:
0:00 Intro 5:35 Mike's Background 6:55 Why Securities 10:20 Investing Contract 13:00 Where's the Line? 20:11 Asset vs. Schemes 24:38 SEC Regulation 29:00 NFTs as Membership 36:48 2023 Regulation 42:51 SEC vs. CFTC 47:25 The Solution to Security Laws 50:40 Centralization 55:10 Current SEC Administration 1:01:30 Decentralization Theatre 1:04:50 Closing & Disclaimers
------ Recources:
Mike Selig https://mobile.twitter.com/mikeseligesq
----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research.
Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures
Stablecoin regulation has become a hot topic, and for very good reason. For one thing, it's an extremely fast growing space. Stablecoins are also a primary way that the crypto interacts with the banking system. And beyond that, as we know, crises often originate from assets that promise to be safe (remember money market mutual funds that broke the buck during the 2008 financial crisis. But are regulators equipped to deal with stablecoins under existing law? On this episode, we speak with Timothy Massad, the former chair of the CFTC and a current research fellow at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government. He explains why he believes regulatory progress can be made right now with the laws that currently exist, and what a new arrangement for issuers would look like.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Caroline Pham, commissioner at the Commodities Futures Trading Commission, discusses how we should build a regulatory framework for crypto assets, whether the SEC and CFTC should work together, what were the consequences of the Terra collapse, and much more. Show highlights:
how Cmr. Pham got started in crypto and became a CFTC commissioner
the importance of the regulatory strategy around crypto
what crypto’s role is in the financial system
how bitcoin is a sort of money outside of the traditional financial system
how friendly regulators should be with the industries they regulate
why she believes transparency is one of the greatest ideals of American democracy
how Cmr. Pham believes in self-determination and the power of free markets
why Cmr. Pham published an op-ed with SEC Commissioner Hester Peirce
how the Terra collapse incentivized regulators to look deeper into the space
whether the US approach towards regulation can improve
the role of the regulatory agencies in making the US the financial leader of the world
what Cmr. Pham thinks about the new Gillibrand and Lummis bill
whether SEC Chair Gary Gensler is right about the majority of cryptos being securities
what are the low-hanging fruit opportunities for regulators when it comes to crypto
how Cmr. Pham believes we should have a global regulatory framework for crypto
why she believes algorithmic stablecoins are derivatives
why things like Terra could act as a “shadow banking 3.0”
whether there is a way to regulate without having intermediaries
what Cmr. Pham thinks about FTX proposal to bypass futures commission merchants
Thank you to our sponsors!
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EPISODE LINKS
Caroline Pham
Twitter: https://twitter.com/CarolineDPham
CFTC Profile: https://www.cftc.gov/About/Commissioners/CarolineDPham/index.htm
Stablecoin regulation
Financial Times article: https://www.ft.com/content/981c380f-bb1c-45bd-8d0d-a95b15d96a00
CNBC on crypto regulation: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/03/cryptocurrency-industry-focus-regulation-stablecoins-market-crash.html
Unchained Coverage: Why Crypto Twitter’s Disrespect Toward Regulators Is a ‘Really Bad Business Decision’: https://unchainedpodcast.com/why-crypto-twitters-disrespect-toward-regulators-is-a-really-bad-business-decision/
Unchained Coverage: Can a DeFi Smart Contract Be Regulated? Two CFTC Commissioners Discuss: https://unchainedpodcast.com/can-a-defi-smart-contract-be-regulated-two-cftc-commissioners-discuss/
FTX proposal to serve as the trading engine for derivatives:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonbrett/2022/04/27/the-ftx-us-proposal-that-shook-congress-and-the-crypto-derivatives-world/?sh=3dac29ef4e19
Unchained Coverage: FTX Wants to Compete with CME – Here’s Why It’s a Big Deal: https://unchainedpodcast.com/ftx-wants-to-compete-with-cme-heres-why-its-a-big-deal/
Hester Peirce
Caroline’s op-ed with SEC Commissioner Hester Peirce: https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/3503277-making-progress-on-decentralized-regulation-its-time-to-talk-about-crypto-together/
Hester Peirce's token safe harbor proposal: https://decrypt.co/66453/secs-hester-peirce-floats-revised-crypto-safe-harbor-rules
Unchained Coverage: Hester Peirce’s Former Counsel on Terra 2.0, XRP and a Bitcoin Spot ETF: https://unchainedpodcast.com/hester-peirces-former-counsel-on-terra-2-0-xrp-and-a-bitcoin-spot-etf/
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Chris Giancarlo, aka CryptoDad, is the former chair of the CFTC, the governing body that oversees Commodity Futures Trading. He's now an advisor in crypto, a senior advisor at a law firm, and of course, a father.
This conversation circles around many of the topics Chris covers in his new book, 'The Fight for the Future of Money.' We move through the specifics like the differences between Futures and Spot ETFs, but then we turn towards the big picture.
What are American values? How do we instantiate them into our digital institutions? America has a remarkable history of saying 'yes,' and the stakes couldn't be higher as America decides whether to say yes to credibly neutral, decentralized protocols.
✨ EPISODE DEBRIEF ✨ https://shows.banklesshq.com/p/exclusive-debrief-the-fight-for-the
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------ Topics Covered:
0:00 Intro 6:30 Chris Giancarlo 10:06 CryptoDad & BTC Futures 18:27 Facing Resistance 22:13 Fear & Regulation 28:02 Vindicated 31:55 Futures vs Spot ETFs 41:29 Liquidity & Price 47:00 ETH Futures 53:09 Trust in Money 58:00 Getting the Values Right 1:04:43 Will People Care? 1:10:31 The CFTC’s Approach 1:16:03 Encouraging Innovation 1:21:31 Regulatory Clarity 1:26:44 Free Markets & Free People 1:33:56 The Crypto Dad 1:37:37 Closing & Disclaimers
------ Resources:
CryptoDad on Twitter: https://twitter.com/giancarloMKTS?s=20
The Fight for the Future of Money: https://www.chrisgiancarlo.org/book
----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research.
Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures
Brian Quintenz was a commissioner on the Commodity Futures Trading Commission from 2017 until April of this year. The CFTC serves to regulate the derivative markets, and Brian particularly worked to embrace innovative technologies and emphasize the power of free markets, even in a regulatory environment.
He has been an advocate for the exploration and growth of the crypto space and is provides an insider’s perspective to deal with the question of crypto regulation. His sober and pragmatic takes are deeply insightful, and there is a clear alignment of values between Brian and the industry.
This episode dives into the disruptive nature of cryptocurrencies, and how we can make sense of this Cambrian explosion of new assets.
GET THIS EPISODE'S DEBRIEF: https://shows.banklesshq.com/p/exclusive-debrief-the-digital-commodity
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------ 📣 SoRare | Collect and Play! https://bankless.cc/SoRare ------ Topics Covered:
0:00 Intro 7:00 Brian Quintenz 9:29 Does the US Hate Crypto? 14:10 Brian’s Take on Crypto 20:36 The CFTC 26:36 Congress is Great at 2 Things 31:14 Digital Farmers need Futures 38:05 Understand It Before You Attack 47:03 SEC vs CFTC 54:04 Crypto Commodities 1:03:35 Tokens Transcend Labels 1:10:00 The New Paradigm 1:17:54 An Explosion of Assets 1:25:14 Rights and Innovation 1:32:20 Good Regualation 1:39:00 Closing & Disclaimers
------ Resources:
Brian on Twitter https://twitter.com/BrianQuintenz?s=20 Episode with Hester Peirce https://shows.banklesshq.com/p/-the-sec-and-defi-hester-peirce
----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research.
Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures
CFTC Commissioners Dan Berkovitz and Brian Quintenz discuss the difficulties of regulating crypto derivatives and DeFi. Show highlights:
their backgrounds
what the CFTC’s duties are regarding crypto
how the CFTC’s jurisdiction has evolved over the years
why Commissioner Quintenz believes SEC Commissioner Hester Peirce’s safe harbor proposal is “brilliant”
what relationship the CFTC and SEC have when making decisions on crypto assets
why the commissioners believe CFTC’s complaints regarding BitMEX are “well-founded”
why formal regulation for crypto derivatives is unlikely to be produced by the CFTC
why leveraged derivatives products are a “concern” to the CFTC
what makes regulating DeFi platforms so difficult
when it comes to DeFi, who is a natural entity for the CFTC to regulate, if any
whether the CFTC would ever go after DeFi "market participants," who the CFTC also regulates
why smart contracts involving futures could be illegal
how the possibility that smart contracts could be illegal squares with the view that software development is a form of free speech
whether the CFTC could prosecute developers who write smart contracts
whether the CFTC needs to re-write its laws in light of DeFi innovation
why Commissioner Berkovitz thinks the DeFi “winners” will be protocols that focus on meeting regulatory requirements
why the CFTC approved Bitcoin futures in 2017 while the SEC has not yet approved a Bitcoin ETF
how a Bitcoin ETF could solve Bitcoin’s accounting issue, which currently gives companies no upside for adding BTC to its balance sheet
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Episode Links
People
Dan Berkovitz, CFTC Commissioner (Sep 2018+)
CFTC website: https://www.cftc.gov/About/Commissioners/CommissionerDanMBerkovitz/index.htm
Twitter: https://twitter.com/CFTCberkovitz
Brian Quintenz, CFTC Commissioner (Aug 2017+)
CFTC website: https://www.cftc.gov/About/Commissioners/BrianQuintenz/index.htm
Twitter: https://twitter.com/CFTCquintenz
Related Links
CFTC digital asset resources: https://www.cftc.gov/digitalassets/index.htm
Commissioner Berkovitz DeFi speech: https://www.theblockcrypto.com/linked/107769/cftc-commissioner-criticizes-defi-decries-lack-of-intermediaries
Commissioner Quintenz smart contracts/blockchain speech: https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/SpeechesTestimony/opaquintenz16
CFTC jurisdiction over digital assets: https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/SpeechesTestimony/giancarlostatement010418
CFTC BitMEX complaint: https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8270-20
FTX and Binance remove high leverage: https://decrypt.co/76858/ftx-and-binance-remove-high-leverage-from-exchanges
SEC Commissioner Hester Peirce’s safe harbor proposal: https://www.sec.gov/news/public-statement/peirce-statement-token-safe-harbor-proposal-2.0
Bitcoin futures approval from CFTC in 2017: https://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-price-futures-trading-exchanges-cftc-2017-12
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At an event at the NYU Stern School of Business, Christopher Giancarlo, former CFTC Chairman and co-founder of the Digital Dollar Foundation, discusses his proposal for a US central bank digital currency (CBDC), and how that fits into the broader geopolitical environment. We cover:
Why he has focused on pushing for a US digital dollar after leaving the CFTC
How a US CBDC would be different from other stablecoins
How the proposal is designed to build off of the traditional banking infrastructure
What pilot programs would look like
How a digital dollar would foster economic inclusion even though using the digital dollar requires owning a smartphone
How it would handle privacy
How the network would be secured
Whether the US is falling behind China in terms of central bank digital currencies and blockchain exploration
Whether Libra will be a proxy for the digital dollar
How COVID-19 has affected the discourse around a digital dollar
Whether the election will affect the future of the digital dollar
Unchained is hiring!
Check out our job listing for a remote editorial assistant here! https://unchainedpodcast.com/seeking-remote-editorial-assistant/
Thank you to our sponsors!
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Stellar: https://www.stellar.org
Episode links:
Chris Giancarlo: https://twitter.com/giancarlo
Digital Dollar Project : https://www.digitaldollarproject.org
Previous Unchained interview with Chris: https://unchainedpodcast.com/christopher-giancarlo-on-the-craziness-of-becoming-crypto-dad/
Chris and Daniel Gorfine’s WSJ op-ed advocating for a digital dollar: https://www.wsj.com/articles/we-sent-a-man-to-the-moon-we-can-send-the-dollar-to-cyberspace-11571179923
Digital dollars in stimulus bills — March: https://www.coindesk.com/house-stimulus-bills-envision-digital-dollar-to-ease-coronavirus-recession
April: https://www.coindesk.com/digital-dollar-reintroduced-by-us-lawmakers-in-latest-stimulus-bill
Pew Research on smartphone adoption: https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/fact-sheet/mobile/
FDIC survey on the unbanked and underbanked: https://www.fdic.gov/householdsurvey/2017/2017execsumm.pdf
Banks keeping some of customers’ stimulus money: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/16/business/stimulus-paychecks-garnish-banks.html
Why a digital dollar is politically more feasible at this moment than before: https://www.coindesk.com/the-overton-window-opens-for-a-digital-dollar
Ohio Senator Sherrod Brown also proposes digital dollar: https://www.coindesk.com/us-senate-floats-digital-dollar-bill-after-house-scrubs-term-from-coronavirus-relief-plan
Philadelphia Fed paper: https://www.philadelphiafed.org/-/media/research-and-data/publications/working-papers/2020/wp20-19.pdf
Receptivity in Congress to the idea of a digital dollar: https://www.coindesk.com/how-a-flurry-of-digital-dollar-proposals-made-it-to-congress
Libra white paper: https://libra.org/en-US/white-paper/#cover-letter
Congressional hearing on using FedAccounts and for stimulus: https://financialservices.house.gov/calendar/eventsingle.aspx?EventID=406612
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Former CFTC chairman Christopher Giancarlo talks about how his experience of the financial crisis piqued his interest in blockchain technology, why the CFTC thought the introduction of Bitcoin futures would help pop the 2017 Bitcoin bubble, and how "there's no simple answer" to explain when a token goes from being a security to a commodity. He discusses why he believes there needs to be a "refresh" of regulations written decades ago that are difficult to apply in a digital world, why he thinks Libra represents a fundamental generational change and why he thinks the project should be allowed to go forward. We also cover the Chinese digital yuan, why the USD should not assume that its global dominance today will translate into global dominance tomorrow, and his own proposal for a digital dollar, which he dubs "Zelle + JPMorgan Coin." Plus, he gives the behind-the-scenes look at why he decided to speak "as a dad" in the Congressional hearing that made him an overnight crypto celebrity.
Thank you to our sponsors!
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Episode links:
Christopher Giancarlo: https://twitter.com/giancarloMKTS
https://www.cftc.gov/About/Commissioners/JChristopherGiancarlo/index.htm
CFTC: https://www.cftc.gov/
Chamber of Digital Commerce: https://digitalchamber.org/
Let the technology evolve before regulating/CFTC is behind on regulating: https://www.coindesk.com/cftc-chair-says-regulator-is-behind-on-blockchain
Popping the Bitcoin bubble: https://www.coindesk.com/trump-administration-popped-2017-bitcoin-bubble-ex-cftc-chair-says
Talks with Facebook pre-Libra launch: https://www.coindesk.com/facebook-holds-talks-with-cftc-over-globalcoin-cryptocurrency-report
The introduction of Bitcoin futures helping to pop the crypto bubble: https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2018/may/how-futures-trading-changed-bitcoin-prices/
Wall Street Journal op-ed proposing a digital dollar: https://www.wsj.com/articles/we-sent-a-man-to-the-moon-we-can-send-the-dollar-to-cyberspace-11571179923
Initial confusion over LedgerX not receiving approval or disapproval within 180 days to launch Bitcoin futures: https://www.coindesk.com/what-happened-why-the-first-us-physical-bitcoin-futures-contracts-havent-launched
CoinDesk article with emails from LedgerX on CFTC dispute: https://www.coindesk.com/ledgerx-claims-personal-animus-drove-ex-cftc-chair-to-stall-approvals
Commodity Exchange Act: https://legcounsel.house.gov/Comps/Commodity%20Exchange%20Act.pdf
Emails sent from LedgerX to the CFTC: https://static.coindesk.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/19-00104-FOIA-Records.pdf
Paul Chou’s blog post summarizing what happened: https://blog.ledgerx.com/let-me-set-the-record-straight/
More context from Noelle Acheson on the dispute: https://www.coindesk.com/derivatives-drama-the-unintended-consequences-of-crypto-regulation
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