Tom Dunleavy

$606 million in DeFi exploits in one month. Two of the space's sharpest risk thinkers debate whether lenders are being paid anywhere close to enough. ======================================================== Thank you to our sponsors! Coinbase One 20% off first year of annual plan + $50 Bitcoin bonus. Offer valid until May 31. coinbase.com/unchained Citrea Bitcoin changed how money works. Satya changes how Bitcoin scales. citrea.xyz/unchained ======================================================== One month, $606 million in exploits. And yet DeFi lending yields for blue-chip collateral sit close to SOFR, as if nothing happened.  Tom Dunleavy, head of venture at Varys Capital, did the math and concluded that fair risk-adjusted DeFi yields should sit around 12.5%. Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic, co-founder of Steakhouse Financial, thinks that number paints with too broad a brush, and that for the right primitives, with the right collateral, the market rate might actually be close to correct.  Host Laura Shin queries them on the TradFi equations that underpin the debate, the DeFi-specific risks that those equations miss, and on whether depositors are sleepwalking into tail risk they cannot fully see. Host: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Laura Shin⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Host / Unchained Guests: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Tom Dunleavy, Head of Venture, Varys Capital — @dunleavy89 Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic, Co-Founder, Steakhouse Financial — @adcv_ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Tom Dunleavy

Head of Venture

Varys CapitalMV Global

A debate has been heating up on crypto Twitter about Real Economic Value (REV) — a metric meant to measure the value blockchains accrue from user activity. REV includes transaction fees and MEV tips, but excludes issuance — the inflationary rewards paid to validators. Some say it’s the clearest window into genuine usage. Others argue it’s a flawed and misleading proxy. So we brought the argument to Unchained. Tom Dunleavy, Head of Venture at Varys Capital, says fees are headed to zero, and blockchains shouldn’t be valued like companies. Meanwhile, Austin Federa, Co-founder of DoubleZero, believes REV offers a real lens on activity, maturity, and demand. The conversation covers: Whether REV is a meaningful metric (and how to game it) Whether L2 tokens are fundamentally broken What happens to security when fees (and MEV) go to zero If high REV signals product-market fit or just economic noise How to value blockchains, if not with REV Visit our website for breaking news, analysis, op-eds, articles to learn about crypto, and much more: unchainedcrypto.com Thank you to our sponsors! Bitwise Guests: Tom Dunleavy, Head of Venture at Varys Capital Austin Federa, Co-founder of DoubleZero Timestamps: 👋 0:00 Intro 📊 2:50 What REV actually measures and why it’s sparking so much debate 💸 4:33 Why fees that don’t go to the protocol are included in this metric 🪙 14:43 Whether L2 tokens are fundamentally worthless 🧮 15:53 How to factor Ethereum L2s into the REV equation 📉 18:15 Why Tom thinks all fees are going to zero and what that means for value accrual 📈 34:06 Austin defends REV and explains why it reflects real user demand ⚠️ 37:07 MEV debate: is it a feature or a flaw? 🔀 42:59 Why Solana might not follow Ethereum’s REV path 🛡️ 44:18 Who secures the network when MEV goes to zero 🤔 53:46 Whether high REV means success 🚫 59:46 Why Austin calls out Jesse Pollak’s “no sandwiching” claim on Base 🌄 1:02:30 Whether Solana’s Alpenglow proposal could reshape MEV 🔄 1:03:43 How REV might rise even as MEV declines 👑 1:07:11 Why Bitcoin lives in its own reality when it comes to metrics 🎮 1:09:57 How protocols can game the REV metric 📐 1:15:19 What other metrics matter when valuing blockchains Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Tom Dunleavy

Head of Venture

Varys CapitalMV Global

Austin Federa

Head of Strategy

Solana FoundationDoubleZero

Gm! This week we're joined by Tom Dunleavy & Ryan Berckmans to discuss the bull case for Ethereum. We deep dive into Ethereum's big pivot, how to value the L1, should L2 tokens exist, the role of Etherealize, what's next for ETH & more. Enjoy! -- Start your day with crypto news, analysis and data from Katherine Ross. Subscribe to the Empire newsletter: https://blockworks.co/newsletter/empire?utm_source=podcasts Follow Ryan: https://x.com/ryanberckmans Follow Tom: https://x.com/dunleavy89 Follow Jason: https://x.com/JasonYanowitz Follow Santi: https://x.com/santiagoroel Follow Empire: https://twitter.com/theempirepod Join the Empire Telegram: https://t.me/+CaCYvTOB4Eg1OWJh -- Get top market insights and the latest in crypto news. Subscribe to Blockworks Daily Newsletter: https://blockworks.co/newsletter/ -- Grab your tickets to Permissionless IV. Use code EMPIRE10 for 10% off: https://blockworks.co/event/permissionless-iv -- ZKsync is the pioneering zero-knowledge technology powering the next generation of builders with limitless scale. Secured by math and designed for native interoperability, ZKsync enables an elastic, ever-expanding network of customizable chains. Deeply rooted in its mission to advance personal freedom for all, the ZKsync technology makes digital self-ownership universally available. To learn more about ZKsync, visit http://www.zksync.io -- Zenrock is a permissionless, decentralized custody network backed by 1RoundTable Partners, 10T, Maven11, and Spartan. Live on Jupiter, $ROCK is the native token for transactions within the Zenrock ecosystem and secures Zenrock’s decentralized custody network. The first application launching on Zenrock is zenBTC – yield-bearing Bitcoin on Solana. zenBTC will be live in April 2025. -- Crypto never sleeps. So we built an Al analyst that never blinks. Meet Focal by FalconX: a GenAI insights engine built for institutional crypto. Already used by 80+ funds managing $10B+ in AUM. 🔹 Screen, chart, and analyze 1300+ tokens 🔹 Summarize market-moving news instantly 🔹 Integrates data from CoinGecko, Kaito, Token Terminal, Tokenomist, The Tie Get started today: https://askfocal.com -- AO Mainnet is LIVE! Experience the future of decentralized computing: infinite parallel processing, secure TEE-powered computations, and LLMs in smart contracts. Built on Arweave, AO's modular design shatters scalability limits. 100% of tokens are distributed to Arweave holders and bridge depositors, with a fixed supply and halving. Explore AO today: https://ao.arweave.dev -- Timestamps: (00:00) Intro (01:50) What Went Wrong With Ethereum? (07:33) The Ethereum L2 Roadmap (10:35) Does Ethereum Have Product Market Fit? (13:46) Ethereum’s Big Pivot (18:11) Ads (ZKSync, Zenrock) (19:49) Should Blockspace Be Taxed? (22:15) Ethereum's Next Chapter (27:55) The Role Of Etherealize (30:18) Ads (ZKSync, Zenrock) (31:57) Does Scaling The L1 Benefit L2s? (42:38) How To Attract Builders To Ethereum (44:46) Ads (Falcon x,Arweave) (46:22) Should We Tariff The L2s? (51:35) How To Value L1s (56:50) The Bull Case For ETH (01:04:00) Should L2 Tokens Exist? (01:09:02) Final Thoughts — Disclaimer: Nothing said on Empire is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions, not financial advice. Santiago, Jason, and our guests may hold positions in the companies, funds, or projects discussed.

Tom Dunleavy

Head of Venture

Varys CapitalMV Global

Ryan Berckmans

Investor

Etherealize

This week, Bloomberg’s James Seyffart, Lumida’s Ram Ahluwalia, and guest Tom Dunleavy explore whether the “Fed pivot” is officially dead, how AI will impact the job market, and what Tether’s move to El Salvador means for U.S. stablecoin policy. They also debate whether bitcoin could ever be a risk-off asset, how sovereign nations might already be accumulating BTC, and what the Coinbase legal win against the SEC signals for the future. Plus, why volatility is still king in crypto and what lies ahead for the global markets. Show highlights: 02:12 Whether the “Fed pivot” is officially dead and whether rate cuts are coming 08:37 What the impact of AI will be on the jobs market 13:27 Why the markets have been chopping so much and whether it’s the bottom 18:00 What Trump could achieve for the crypto industry in his first 100 days 23:02 Whether the US sold the Silk Road bitcoin 25:27 Why bitcoin will not be a risk-off asset in the near term according to Tom and Ram 31:08 Whether sovereign nations have already started buying bitcoin 36:49 Why Tether moving to El Salvador is a loss to the U.S., according to Ram 40:26 How the L.A. fires will have an impact on the political landscape in the U.S. 52:06 How Coinbase just achieved a “huge win” against the SEC Sponsors: Stellar Build Better Hosts: James Seyffart, Research Analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence Ram Ahluwalia, CFA, CEO and Founder of Lumida Guest: Tom Dunleavy, Partner at Master Ventures Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Tom Dunleavy

Head of Venture

Varys CapitalMV Global