"In a decentralized governance system, it's unavoidable to develop politics." Rune Christensen explains why DAO governance becomes a struggle for resources, how the "iron law of bureaucracy" emerges, and why Sky redesigned its architecture to survive it. From USDS growth to the Atlas rulebook and Genesis Capital — this is Sky's long-term vision for sustainable decentralized finance.
Despite the ups and downs of the Ethereum ecosystem, two of its most influential builders—Aave’s Stani Kulechov and Sky’s Rune Christensen—remain bullish. In this episode, they discuss whether we’re witnessing a DeFi renaissance, the challenges of building on Ethereum vs. Solana, and why DeFi adoption isn’t growing as fast as some expected. They debate stablecoins, whether Solana is truly innovating, and how AI could transform DeFi by automating governance and risk management. They also respond to some hot takes—including whether Aave is falling behind Solana-based Kamino, and why Sky deployed its USDS stablecoin on Solana despite Rune’s long-standing Ethereum advocacy. Show highlights: 02:33 Whether Sky and Aave are experiencing a “DeFi renaissance” 11:49 How Stani and Rune are trying to appeal to a simpler audience 23:00 Whether developers overlook how easy it is to build DeFi on Ethereum 27:40 Why Stani believes there is not a lot of innovation in Solana 32:17 What would need to happen for Aave to be in Solana 33:27 Why Sky deployed USDS on Solana 40:30 Whether the Ethereum ecosystem should be worried about users going to other chains 49:19 Why Rune praises Solana’s culture 51:38 How USDS’s growth on Base happens organically, contrary to Solana 59:35 Why they believe that the combination of AI and DeFi will be so powerful Visit our website for breaking news, analysis, op-eds, articles to learn about crypto, and much more: unchainedcrypto.com Thank you to our sponsors! Mantle RockWallet Kelp DAO Guest: Stani Kulechov, Founder and CEO of Aave Previous appearances on Unchained: Stani Kulechov on Why Aave Is So Successful - Unchained The Chopping Block w/ Stani Kulechov: Operation Chokepoint 2.0, Ethereum Innovation Push, & Polymarket Whales - Unchained Rune Christensen, Co-founder of Sky Previous appearances on Unchained: Can Maker’s Rune Christensen Fix the Sad State of DAO Governance? Rune Christensen of MakerDAO Part 1: How to Keep a Crypto-Collateralized Stablecoin Afloat Rune Christensen of MakerDAO Part 2: How Dai Stayed at $1 While ETH Crashed From $1,400 to $85 The Chopping Block: How to Manage MakerDAO, With Hasu and Rune Rune Christensen of MakerDao on Its $15 Million From Andreessen Horowitz Why It’s so Hard to Keep Stablecoins Stable Links Aave 2030 roadmap Alex Svanevik of Nansen tweeted: “When Aave on Solana?” Qiao Wang of Alliance DAO commenting on why he recommends people build on Solana The First Non-EVM Deployment of Aave Protocol: Aave V3 on Aptos - General - Aptos Forum Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This conversation between The Defiant and Rune Christensen was recorded during Devconnect 2023 in Istanbul. Chapters 0:28 Why Rune is in Istanbul 1:02 Crypto Adoption in Türkiye 5:03 Interest for DeFi in Türkiye 8:09 Emerging Markets 10:50 Regulatory Landscape in Türkiye 24:15 MakerDAO Rebrand 27:51 MakerDAO Endgame Update 33:57 MakerDAO's Exposure to T-Bills vs Macro Conditions 38:00 Different Stablecoins 47:14 MKR and Governance
The height of the last bull run was when MakerDAO cofounder Rune Christensen felt most disillusioned by DeFi and DAOs. “I didn’t even see how Maker was going to survive,” Christensen tells Laura Shin in the latest episode of Unchained. Now Christensen is leading an effort to help DAOs escape their trough of disillusionment. He says the ambitious “Endgame Plan” for MakerDAO seeks to overcome “the central issue of voter apathy.” Will it work or are DAOs doomed to fail? Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Stitcher, Castbox, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform. Show highlights: the disillusionment that comes with the growth of DAOs and the need for a new approach Rune’s insights into the challenges that most DAOs face how Maker plans to implement alignment engineering through tools, gamification, and incentives what each phase of Maker’s “Endgame Plan” seeks to accomplish the strategy behind Maker’s rebranding, including the launch of new tokens while maintaining MKR and DAI the importance of governance boundaries in ensuring that participants follow the rules and contribute constructively the goal to reach a state of ossification and certainty, similar to Bitcoin the challenges of renaming tokens and the decision to keep the original brands why Rune believes that Phase 2 of the Endgame Plan will change the industry how SubDAOs will work to align incentives, improve the organization, and avoid ponzi schemes what Maker’s “Atlas” is and how it intends to set boundaries how Maker plans to use artificial intelligence the role of delegates in the DAO and how users choose them the difference between “dovish” and “hawkish” governance what the motivation was for launching the Spark lending protocol why the DAI Savings Rate (DSR) is not offered to American investors and Rune’s take on DeFi regulation why South Korea and Japan are the best crypto environments in the world, according to Rune whether Maker should be doing more to mitigate the influence of “whales,” given that Rune owns about 10% of the MKR supply Thank you to our sponsors! Crypto.com Arbitrum Foundation TOKEN2049 Guest: Rune Christensen, Cofounder of MakerDAO Previous appearances on Unchained: Rune Christensen of MakerDAO Part 1: How to Keep a Crypto-Collateralized Stablecoin Afloat Rune Christensen of MakerDAO Part 2: How Dai Stayed at $1 While ETH Crashed From $1,400 to $85 The Chopping Block: How to Manage MakerDAO, With Hasu and Rune Rune Christensen of MakerDao on Its $15 Million From Andreessen Horowitz Why It's so Hard to Keep Stablecoins Stable Links Unchained: MakerDAO: The DeFi Protocol That Lets You Be Your Own Banker MakerDAO’s Spark Protocol Blocks VPN Users MakerDAO to Raise DAI Yield Amid Lower Demand for Stablecoin Maker Founder Proposes Changing DAI Savings Rate to 5% The Defiant: Christensen Drops Radical Plan to Remake MakerDAO and Address 'Fundamental Problems', Christensen’s Twitter thread explaining Endgame Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Today we are joined by Rune Christensen to discuss MakerDAO's Endgame. The Endgame is MakerDAO's roadmap to create the world's most widely used stablecoin. We discuss how Maker has evolved since 2015, MKR's underperformance, the 5 phases of the Endgame, what could go wrong and more! - - Timestamps: 00:00 MakerDAO's History: From Creation to Today 08:51 Codifying Rules to Scale 19:36 MKR’s Underperformance vs DAI’s Growth 24:36 Quicknode 26:25 Phase 1: Rebranding, New Tokens, Farming 37:37 Phase 2: SubDAOs, RWA Collateral & Tokenomics 55:59 Phase 3: Implementing AI 01:01:20 Phase 4 & 5: Voting Rewards and a Special Purpose Blockchain 01:05:40 The Bear Case 01:10:10 Allocator DAOs and Internalizing Value - - Follow Rune: https://twitter.com/RuneKek Follow Jason: https://twitter.com/JasonYanowitz Follow Santi: https://twitter.com/santiagoroel Follow Empire: https://twitter.com/theempirepod Subscribe on YouTube: https://tinyurl.com/4fdhhb2j Subscribe on Apple: https://tinyurl.com/mv4frfv7 Subscribe on Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/wbaypprw Get top market insights and the latest in crypto news. Subscribe to Blockworks Daily Newsletter: https://blockworks.co/newsletter/ - - This episode is brought to you by Quicknode. QuickNode is an end-to-end blockchain developer platform that makes building Web3 apps easy. Go to QuickNode.com and use code Empire for a free month on their feature-packed Build Plan! - - Resources The Endgame Plan parts 1&2 (May 2022) https://forum.makerdao.com/t/the-endgame-plan-parts-1-2/15456 The 5 phases of Endgame (May 2023) https://forum.makerdao.com/t/the-5-phases-of-endgame/20830 - - Disclaimer: Nothing said on Empire is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions, not financial advice. Santiago, Jason, and our guests may hold positions in the companies, funds, or projects discussed.
Welcome to The Chopping Block! Crypto insiders Haseeb Qureshi, Tom Schmidt, and Robert Leshner chop it up about the latest news in the digital asset industry. In this episode, Hasu, the gourmand of governance and Rune Christensen, chief mischief maker at MKR, discuss how to manage a DAO, their respective visions for MakerDAO, and much more. Show topics: What MakerDAO is, how DAI works and whether it is the “central bank” of DeFi How the visions for MakerDAO of Hasu and Rune differ Whether Maker should only hold highly liquid collateral assets Hasu’s mental model of DAI as eurodollars The role of real-world assets in backing DAI What the purpose of a DAO is and how it differs from a legal entity Whether people behave in their purest form within a DAO How DAI can create positive externalities and make a better world How crypto holders are not only in it for the money but also for the philosophy What the “decentralized stablecoin trilemma” is Whether there’s a need for dollar-denominated collateral for DAI to work What “clean money” is according to Rune Why Rune thinks having a single council is not viable due to the political risks and whether the solution is to have multiple councils How to keep the principal-agent problem in check, according to Hasu Why Hasu believes council members wouldn’t pursue their own interests and go against the benefit of MKR token holders Whether a council would be corruptible and the dangers that it entails What kind of interests should be represented in the council Whether Maker can create more synthetic assets The iron law bureaucracy and how it relates to governance How to design the DAO to be steered in alignment with the token holders Whether ossification is a feature to be pursued, and where innovation happens How complexity is very expensive for an organization Hosts Haseeb Qureshi, managing partner at Dragonfly Capital https://twitter.com/hosseeb Tom Schmidt, general partner at Dragonfly Capital https://twitter.com/tomhschmidt Robert Leshner, founder of Compound https://twitter.com/rleshner Hasu Twitter: https://twitter.com/hasufl Rune Christensen Twitter: https://twitter.com/RuneKek Episode Links MakerDAO Hasu’s governance proposal: https://vote.makerdao.com/address/0xafaff1a605c373b43727136c995d21a7fcd08989#delegate-credentials Rune’s proposal - the endgame: https://forum.makerdao.com/t/the-endgame-plan-parts-1-2/15456 Proposal to add a lending oversight core unit: https://forum.makerdao.com/t/mip39c2-sp33-adding-lending-oversight-core-unit-love-001/15098 Previous Coverage of Unchained: Rune Christensen of MakerDAO Part 1: How to Keep a Crypto-Collateralized Stablecoin Afloat: https://unchainedpodcast.com/rune-christensen-of-makerdao-part-1-how-to-keep-a-crypto-collateralized-stablecoin-afloat/ Rune Christensen of MakerDAO Part 2: How Dai Stayed at $1 While ETH Crashed From $1,400 to $85: https://unchainedpodcast.com/rune-christensen-of-makerdao-part-2-how-dai-stayed-at-1-while-eth-crashed-from-1400-to-85/ The Rise of MakerDAO: A Personal Journey: https://unchainedpodcast.com/the-rise-of-makerdao-a-personal-journey/ Real World Assets: Huntingdon Valley Bank (“HVB”) proposal: https://forum.makerdao.com/t/huntingdon-valley-bank-hvb-rwa-collateral-onboarding-risk-assessment/15828 $500 million allocation proposal: https://forum.makerdao.com/t/signal-request-asset-allocation-of-mip65-clydesdale/15922 The stablecoin trilemma: https://fluid.ch/stablecoin-trilemma/#:~:text=A%20deeper%20dive%20into%20the,decide%20on%20the%20stablecoin%20supply. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Rune Christensen is the Founder of MakerDAO and one of the pioneers of the DeFi space. As one of the earliest DeFi protocols, Maker set precedents for tokenomics, governance, and use cases. Maker is setting new precedents with the recent announcement of Société Générale's proposal for a Maker loan using bond tokens. As a thought leader in Crypto, Rune has had some fascinating takes lately on the plausibility of a multichain future, as well as how incentives can turn DAI into a clean money. From maximalism to environmentalism, this conversation explores it all. ------ 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/ 🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/ ------ 📣 ZERION | Your Gateway to the Metaverse! https://bankless.cc/Zerion ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 💰 GEMINI | FIAT & CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://bankless.cc/go-gemini 💧LIDO | DECENTRALIZED STAKING https://bankless.cc/Matcha 👻 AAVE | LEND & BORROW ASSETS https://bankless.cc/aave 🦄 UNISWAP | DECENTRALIZED FUNDING https://bankless.cc/UniGrants ------ Topics Covered: 0:00 Intro 7:00 Rune Christensen of MakerDAO 12:20 Société Générale 20:32 Why Maker? 23:48 Criticizing the Multi-Chain World 41:19 Optimizing for Home 49:06 On Maximalism 58:13 Nativity and Monetary Premium 1:07:47 Does Decentralization Matter? 1:12:53 Multi-Chain Propaganda 1:20:00 Maker as Clean Money 1:29:56 Aligning Human & Market Values 1:41:05 Environmental Economic Crisis 1:46:26 How Maker Gets Clean 1:53:24 Narratives 2:02:41 Solarpunk Tokenomics 2:09:53 Updates on DeFi 2:12:12 Closing & Disclaimers ------ Resources: Rune on Twitter: https://twitter.com/RuneKek?s=20 MakerDAO: https://makerdao.com/en/ The Case for Clean Money: https://twitter.com/RuneKek/status/1445072416598859781?s=20 The L1 Future: https://twitter.com/RuneKek/status/1436454065760788483?s=20 ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures
In this week’s episode we speak with Rune Christensen, the founder of MakerDAO, the largest lending platform by assets in decentralized finance and the issuer of the Dai stablecoin. Rune has been in crypto since 2011 and is no stranger to volatility and crazy market conditions. Still, last month was the most shocking for him yet. On March 12th, MakerDAO’s mechanism to heal loans that become under-collateralized broke down amid the market crash, allowing one trader to run off with more than $4 million in free ether. He calls it Maker’s toughest test yet, and he believes the protocol passed it. Key things we talked about: MakerDAO’s plan to hand control to its community and dissolve the Maker Foundation MKR auction and token whales The decision to add centralized collateral to back Dai Whether Maker will add Bitcoin as collateral and create a euro-pegged Dai Collateral holders who lost 100% of their funds in the March 12 crash Rune’s long-term vision for DeFi and Maker, as an enabler for financial inclusion
Rune Christensen, CEO and cofounder of MakerDAO, explains how multicollateral Dai will work, what happens if one type of collateral fails, and what happens when someone's collateralized debt position with multicollateral Dai needs to be liquidated. He also discusses who gets to participate in the various levels of governance with the MKR token, who owns those tokens and what the purpose of the Maker Foundation is. We also cover whether the CFTC would consider collateralized debt positions to be derivatives and therefore under its purview, how Dai is being used and how much education is required for people to use the system. Thank you to our sponsors! CipherTrace: http://ciphertrace.com/unchained Microsoft: https://twitter.com/MSFTBlockchain Tokensoft: https://www.tokensoft.io Episode links: MakerDAO: https://makerdao.com/en/ Rune Christensen: https://twitter.com/RuneKek Previous Unchained episode on stablecoins with Rune and Philip Rosedale of High Fidelity: https://unchainedpodcast.com/why-its-so-hard-to-keep-stablecoins-stable/ Unconfirmed episode with Rune on Andreessen Horowitz’s $15 million investment: https://unchainedpodcast.com/rune-christensen-of-makerdao-on-its-15-million-from-andreessen-horowitz-ep-039/ Part 1 of my interview with Rune: https://unchainedpodcast.com/rune-christensen-of-makerdao-part-1-how-to-keep-a-crypto-collateralized-stablecoin-afloat/ Digital Asset Research report on MakerDAO: https://www.digitalassetresearch.com/our-products/#in-depth-research CFTC smart contracts primer prohibiting derivatives contracts that are traded on exchanges that are supposed to be registered with the CFTC and are not. https://www.cftc.gov/sites/default/files/2018-11/LabCFTC_PrimerSmartContracts112718.pdf Nice recap of how Dai has performed as ETH has dropped in price: https://medium.com/@mikeraymcdonald/single-collateral-dai-9-months-in-review-b9d9fbe45ab MKR Tools website: https://mkr.tools/tokens/dai Description of Maker Tools: https://medium.com/@mikeraymcdonald/announcing-the-new-mkr-tools-e32466f1c3db Maintaining its peg as ETH dropped: https://medium.com/makerdao/volatile-times-dai-as-a-safe-haven-2f017453e9f1 MakerDAO and Wyre partnership: https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/makerdao-and-wyre-give-businesses-immediate-access-to-dai-stablecoin-in-over-thirty-countries-including-usa-300696400.html ETH in DeFi projects: https://mikemcdonald.github.io/eth-defi/ Placeholder VC blog post: https://www.placeholder.vc/blog/2019/1/23/maker-investment-thesis Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Rune Christensen, CEO and cofounder of MakerDAO, explains the intricacies of the MakerDAO system, which includes the stablecoin Dai, which is pegged to $1, backed by collateral, and whose governance is managed by holders of the MKR token. He describes how the current version of "single-collateral" Dai, is backed by ether, how Dai is created with a collateralized debt position and what happens when the value of the collateral falls too low. He also talks about the roles of various players in the system, such as keepers, oracles and MKR token holders. We also cover how the system handles black swan events or other emergencies. The MakerDAO system is so complex, however, that we will reconvene for a part 2 to describe the rest of the system and how a multi-collateral Dai will function. Thank you to our sponsors! Tokensoft: https://www.tokensoft.io Microsoft: https://twitter.com/MSFTBlockchain CipherTrace: http://ciphertrace.com/unchained Episode links: MakerDAO: https://makerdao.com/en/ Rune Christensen: https://twitter.com/RuneKek Previous Unchained episode on stablecoins with Rune and Philip Rosedale of High Fidelity: https://unchainedpodcast.com/why-its-so-hard-to-keep-stablecoins-stable/ Unconfirmed episode with Rune on Andreessen Horowitz's $15 million investment: https://unchainedpodcast.com/rune-christensen-of-makerdao-on-its-15-million-from-andreessen-horowitz-ep-039/ MakerDAO white paper: https://makerdao.com/en/whitepaper/ Decreasing the stability fee: https://medium.com/makerdao/decreasing-the-stability-fee-1f9fe50cf582 Unchained episode on generalized mining with Jake Brukhman and Tushar Jain: https://unchainedpodcast.com/coinfunds-jake-brukhman-and-multicoins-tushar-jain-on-generalized-mining-ep-92/ Laura's TEDx talk: https://unchainedpodcast.com/lauras-tedx-talk-how-crypto-could-allow-more-people-to-be-their-own-boss-ep-047/ USD Coin's banking partners: https://support.usdc.circle.com/hc/en-us/articles/360015278272-Who-are-the-banking-and-financial-partners-you-are-using-for-USDC- TrueUSD's trust companies and their correspondent banks: https://blog.trusttoken.com/who-are-the-correspondent-banks-and-trustee-partners-for-trueusd-e12508f0d5a2 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Rune Christensen of MakerDAO and Philip Rosedale, founder of Second Life and High Fidelity, discuss why stablecoins are called crypto's holy grail, why they may be what's necessary for mainstream adoption, and all the ways a stablecoin can be constructed. Philip brings in his experience with Second Life's Linden dollars, often called the first true virtual currency, to describe how it was constructed and how he's planning to disseminate the cryptocurrency of his new virtual world, High Fidelity. Plus, we talk about why a digital USD wouldn't be a threat to stablecoins and whether collateralized stablecoins resemble fractional reserve banking or not. Maker DAO: https://makerdao.com/ High Fidelity: https://highfidelity.com/ HFC: https://docs.highfidelity.com/high-fidelity-commerce/basics/hfc More info on Linden dollars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Second_Life The Hacker Noon post by Haseeb Qureshi: https://hackernoon.com/stablecoins-designing-a-price-stable-cryptocurrency-6bf24e2689e5 IMF SDRs: http://www.imf.org/en/About/Factsheets/Sheets/2016/08/01/14/51/Special-Drawing-Right-SDR Episode with Bill Tai: http://unchainedpodcast.co/maitai-globals-bill-tai-on-why-blockchain-is-the-6th-wave-of-technology Vitalik's post on collateralized debt obligations for issuer-backed tokens: https://ethresear.ch/t/collateralized-debt-obligations-for-issuer-backed-tokens/525 Other stablecoins: Tether: https://tether.to/ Basecoin: http://www.getbasecoin.com/ Havven: https://havven.io/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
