Lighter

What does it take to build an exchange that refuses to choose between speed, cost, security, verifiability and composability? Lighter founder Vlad Novakovski joins David to trace his path from international Olympiads and Harvard at 18 to Citadel, early machine learning, Lunchclub and an 18-month ZK engineering bet. --- 📣SPOTIFY PREMIUM RSS FEED | USE CODE: SPOTIFY24 https://bankless.cc/spotify-premium --- BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🔓NEAR | TRADE CONFIDENTIALLY, GET 20% BACK https://bankless.cc/near-20 📊BITGET | TOKENIZED STOCKS 2.0 https://bankless.cc/bitget-stocks 🧭OKX | TRADE, EARN, PAY to OKX | 120M+ USERS WORLDWIDE https://app.okx.com/join/USBANKLESS 🎯THE DEFI REPORT | ONCHAIN INSIGHTS https://thedefireport.io/bankless 👑BANKLESS PREMIUM | AD-FREE & BONUS EPISODES https://bankless.cc/spotify-premium --- TIMESTAMPS 0:00 A Particular Set of Skills 11:33 Harvard at 18 19:03 Citadel and the Search for Alpha 25:14 Machine Learning Before the AI Boom 36:46 ​​Finding Elite Talent Early 41:39 The Lunchclub Matching Problem 45:11 Pivoting Into Lighter 51:18 The 18-Month ZK Engineering Bet 56:38 Lighter’s Five Pillars 1:00:04 A New Generation of Exchanges --- RESOURCES Vlad Novakovski https://x.com/vnovakovski --- Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures

Vlad Novakovski

Founder and CEO

Lighter

Robinhood Chain perps now run on Lighter. Vlad Novakovski maps the revenue split, the USDG collateral risk, and the race for a US perps license. ======================================================== Thank you to our sponsor! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Fidelity⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: Fidelity has been building in crypto and DeFi since 2014 — now they're hiring. Explore career opportunities at one of the most forward-thinking names in finance here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠crypto.fidelitycareers.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Cape⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: Your biggest crypto vulnerability isn't your wallet, it's your phone number. Cape is America's privacy-first mobile carrier that rotates your SIM identity daily and blocks SIM swaps before they happen. Get 33% off your first six months at cape.co/unchained (use code: UNCHAINED). ======================================================== Robinhood Chain went live last week, and the perpetual futures powering it are from Lighter, the onchain exchange Robinhood backed before Lighter launched its token. Vlad Novakovski, founder and CEO of Lighter, joins Laura Shin to unpack a partnership he says has been building since he and the Robinhood founder were high school classmates. He details a 50/50 revenue split, why USDG as collateral creates friction for market makers, and how a pending CFTC license would cover Robinhood's own front-end too. Novakovski also addresses the crowded field forming around US perps, from Kalshi and Coinbase to Kraken and dYdX, and makes the case that onchain volume keeps gaining share even as crypto native tokens lag real world asset perps. His new seat on the CFTC Innovation Advisory Committee puts him in the room as regulators decide what a DEX has to look like to operate onshore. Host: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Laura Shin⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Host / Unchained Guests: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Vlad Novakovski - Founder and CEO of Lighter Timestamps 🤝 01:28 Why Vlad calls the Robinhood Chain deal "12 years in the making" and how the revenue is split 🤓 03:40 How Robinhood perps differs from Lighter's own app 💸 05:03 What if means if USDG is the quote asset on Robinhood's perps and USDC is the quote asset on Lighter 💬 11:04 Novakovski on Lighter's Telegram Wallet deal vs Hyperliquid's builder codes 📣 12:50 Cape: Get 33% off six months of privacy first mobile service at https://cape.co/unchained 💼 13:44 Fidelity: Explore crypto and DeFi careers at https://crypto.fidelitycareers.com 📉 14:31 Why RWA perps are hitting highs while crypto native perp volume cools ⚠️ 18:00 How Lighter prices liquidation risk when tokenized stocks are collateral 🏛️ 21:14 Novakovski on the regulatory pathway DEXs need to move onshore Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Vladimir Novakovski

Founder & CEO

Lighter

Vladimir Novakovski of Lighter joins the Chopping Block crew to untangle one of crypto's oldest debates: what happens when tokens and equity coexist. The gang digs into the Venice/VVV controversy, breaks down Lighter's new Perps integration with Robinhood Chain and the fragmentation questions it raises, dissects the wild BonkDAO governance exploit, and reacts to the eye-popping $2.4 billion in crypto income disclosed in Trump's financial filings. Welcome to The Chopping Block – where crypto insiders Haseeb Qureshi, Tom Schmidt, Tarun Chitra, and Robert Leshner chop it up about the latest in crypto, joined this week by special guest Vladimir Novakovski of Lighter. The crew dives deep into the resurfaced tokens-versus-equity debate sparked by Dragonfly's investment in Venice and its VVV token, with Haseeb making the case that Venice is fundamentally different from Uniswap Labs style structures. Vlad explains how Lighter has approached the same dilemma through programmatic buybacks and a single C corp structure, and the group debates fiduciary duties, Delaware law, and what a merged DeFi/TradFi future for equity and tokens might look like. From there, they unpack Lighter's big Robinhood Chain announcement, including Lighter's new role as the native Perps engine inside Robinhood Wallet, and whether running a separate instance fragments liquidity. The episode wraps with a breakdown of the BonkDAO governance exploit that let an attacker vote themselves $20 million in tokens, and a reaction to Trump's staggering $2.4 billion in pre-tax crypto income revealed in his latest financial disclosure. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pods, Fountain, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform. Show highlights 🔹 Haseeb breaks down why Venice's VVV token is not equity and not a Uniswap style governance token in disguise 🔹 Vlad explains how Lighter's programmatic buybacks and single C corp structure align token holders and equity holders 🔹 The gang debates Delaware fiduciary law, shareholder primacy, and what happens when buyback capital runs dry 🔹 Vlad lays out the vision of tokenized equity merging with crypto tokens into a single on-chain asset 🔹 Lighter's Robinhood Chain deal goes live with Lighter powering native Perps trading inside Robinhood Wallet 🔹 Vlad addresses concerns about liquidity fragmentation across separate Lighter instances 🔹 BonkDAO gets exploited as an attacker buys governance tokens and votes themselves $20 million 🔹 Robert compares the Bonk exploit to the infamous Beanstalk and Compound Humpty governance attacks 🔹 Trump's financial disclosure reveals $2.4 billion in pre-tax crypto income, sparking a debate on crypto's political future Hosts ⭐️Haseeb Qureshi, Managing Partner at Dragonfly ⭐️Tom Schmidt, General Partner at Dragonfly ⭐️Robert Leshner, Founder & CEO of Superstate Guest ⭐️Vladimir Novakovski, Founder of Lighter Timestamps 00:00 Intro 03:40 Tokens vs equity: the Venice VVV debate begins 06:12 Fiduciary duty, Delaware law, and Lighter's C corp structure 08:00 What happens when buyback capital runs out 12:42 Why Venice launched a token in the first place 19:18 Comparing VVV to BNB and overloaded crypto assets 25:28 Lighter's Robinhood Chain deal and native Perps launch 37:02 BonkDAO governance exploit and the $20M vote 44:02 Lessons from Beanstalk and Compound's Humpty saga 47:09 Trump's $2.4B crypto income disclosure reactions Disclosures Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Vladimir Novakovski

Founder & CEO

Lighter

Hyperliquid has become the breakout perp exchange of crypto. But is the market missing its biggest competitor? Delphi’s Flip and DeFi investor Will Price join David to make the case for Lighter, a ZK-powered Ethereum L2 with zero-fee retail trading, white-glove distribution, real-world asset perps, and a token buying back revenue at a surprising rate. Is LIT just a Hyperliquid beta trade, or is it one of the most underpriced bets in onchain finance? --- 📣SPOTIFY PREMIUM RSS FEED | USE CODE: SPOTIFY24 https://bankless.cc/spotify-premium --- BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🔮POLYMARKET | #1 PREDICTION MARKET https://bankless.cc/polymarket-podcast 🧭OKX | TRADE, EARN, PAY to OKX | 120M+ USERS WORLDWIDE https://app.okx.com/join/USBANKLESS 🦊 METAMASK | DOWNLOAD NOW https://go.metamask.io/BL-Pod-Download 🌐BRIX | EMERGING MARKET YIELD https://bankless.cc/brix 🎯THE DEFI REPORT | ONCHAIN INSIGHTS https://thedefireport.io/bankless --- TIMESTAMPS 0:00 Intro 3:05 Why Lighter Is Different 5:32 ZK Rollup Advantages 6:46 Charging Traders, Not Retail 12:07 Fairness Without MEV 14:50 Why Hyperliquid Can’t Copy 18:03 Distribution Beyond Crypto 22:08 Latency & Flow Quality 26:50 Technical Edge Across the Stack 30:31 RWAs & Pre-IPO Markets 34:07 U.S. Perps Market Play 36:05 Back-End For Big Brokers 38:28 Bootstrapping Liquidity 41:54 Lighter As A Platform 46:34 Token Value & Buybacks 50:11 Market Cap Versus FDV 53:02 Valuing LIT Properly 57:51 Cracked Team & Better Comms 58:13 Joining The Lighter Community 58:51 What Comes Next --- RESOURCES Will Price https://x.com/will__price Trevor Flipper https://x.com/trevor_flipper --- Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures

Will Price

Data Scientist

Flipside CryptoLighter

Flip

Analyst

Delphi Digital

This week, Lighter Founder & CEO Vladimir Novakovski discusses Lighter’s competitive edge over Hyperliquid, why he chose to be an L2 on Ethereum, and the role of their ZK innovations. We also touch on equity perps, Lighter’s partnership with Robinhood, and why Vlad chose to work in crypto. Enjoy! Follow Vlad: https://x.com/vnovakovski  Follow Jason: https://x.com/JasonYanowitz  Follow Empire: https://twitter.com/theempirepod  -- Timestamps (00:00) Intro (03:05) Why Vlad Chose Crypto & a Perp DEX (11:37) Competing as a Perp DEX (18:00) Why Be an L2 on Ethereum? (20:37) Unpacking Lighter’s Competitive Edge (25:46) Lighter’s ZK Innovations (32:33) Partnership with Robinhood (38:06) Equity Perps and Advantage Over Hyperliquid (44:11) Lighter Token & Valuation (51:56) What Are People Missing? -- Disclaimer: Nothing said on Empire is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions, not financial advice. Santiago, Jason, and our guests may hold positions in the companies, funds, or projects discussed. Apple 🎙️: https://bit.ly/49KooP3   Spotify 🎙️: https://bit.ly/3NoHu60  YouTube 🎥: https://bit.ly/49XeCu6

Vladimir Novakovski

Founder & CEO

Lighter

Welcome to The Chopping Block — where crypto insiders Haseeb Qureshi, Tom Schmidt, Tarun Chitra, and Robert Leshner chop it up about the latest in crypto. This episode features special guest Vladimir Novakovski, Founder of Lighter, joining the crew to unpack the fallout from October 10’s historic perpetuals liquidation event and the ADL research that sparked a public clash with Hyperliquid. The panel digs into how auto-deleveraging really works, why these failures were long hidden inside centralized exchanges, and what decentralized perps must fix to truly outperform TradFi. The conversation then turns to the intensifying perp wars. With Lighter’s zero-fee trading model, premium tiers for pros, and a looming token launch, the hosts debate whether crypto is headed for a Robinhood-style fee reset, why TVL may matter more than volume, and how RWAs, FX perps, and cross-margining are reshaping market structure. Finally, they tackle the growing divide between tokens and equity as devcos get acquired and tokenholders are left behind. Perps are evolving, incentives are breaking — let’s get into it. Show Highlights 🔹 ADL research ignites a firestorm — Tarun’s paper on auto-deleveraging sparks a public clash with Hyperliquid and Paradigm, exposing how opaque ADL systems really are. 🔹 October 10 liquidation shock — Repeated ADLs during crypto’s largest liquidation day reveal structural fragility long hidden inside both CEXs and DEXs. 🔹 Fairness vs predictability in perps — Why traders care less about perfect algorithms and more about knowing when and how ADLs will hit. 🔹 Lighter’s design tradeoffs — Vladimir Novakovski explains Lighter’s less-aggressive ADL approach, insurance fund buffers, and trader-friendly risk parameters. 🔹 Zero-fee perps debate — Lighter’s free retail tier + paid pro tier raises the question: is crypto headed for a Robinhood-style fee reset? 🔹 TVL beats volume — The panel argues TVL is the most honest signal of trust in perp exchanges, especially during market stress. 🔹 RWAs and FX perps surprise — Euro and index perps outperform expectations, challenging assumptions about which real-world assets actually trade onchain. 🔹 Tokens vs equity explode — Devco acquihires (Axelar, Tensor) leave tokenholders behind, reigniting debates over incentive alignment and crypto M&A. Hosts: ⭐️Haseeb Qureshi, Managing Partner at Dragonfly ⭐️Tarun Chitra, Managing Partner at Robot Ventures Guest ⭐️Vladimir Novakovski, Founder & CEO. Lighter. Links: Tarun Chitra’s Autodeleveraging: $653 million lost to a greedy heuristic? 🔗 https://x.com/kenchangh/status/1994854381267947640  ⁠Disclosures⁠ Timestamps 00:00 Intro 01:38 Tarun’s ADL Paper Sparks Backlash 05:24 Research vs Bag Defense 06:27 How ADLs Actually Work 12:27 Fairness vs Predictability 24:14 Tarun’s Inspiration  28:17 Zero-Fee Perps Explained 34:12 Perp Wars Heat Up 38:15 RWAs Trade Onchain 41:49 Token Launch Reality 47:19 Tokens vs Equity Clash Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Vladimir Novakovski

Founder & CEO

Lighter

A $19B liquidation wave hit crypto 10 days after Lighter’s public mainnet—so we asked founder/CEO Vladimir Novakovski why they built a ZK L2 Perp DEX on Ethereum, how the escape hatch actually protects users, and what really happened under extreme stress. We dig into ADL vs. LLP, trader-first design, and why verifiability (not vibes) should govern order matching and liquidations. Vlad shares throughput targets, why Lighter chose custom ZK circuits over a generalized ZKVM, and what’s next: Spot, universal cross-margin, and a ZKVM sidecar for a broader platform play. We close with lessons from the cascade, realistic tradeoffs of being an L2, and how L2Beat “stage upgrades” fit into the roadmap. --- 📣IMMUNEFI | CRYPTO SECURITY OS https://bankless.cc/Immunefi --- BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🪙FRAXNET | MINT, REDEEM, EARN https://bankless.cc/fraxnet 🦄UNISWAP | SWAP ON UNICHAIN https://bankless.cc/unichain 🛞MANTLE | MODULAR L2 NETWORK https://bankless.cc/Mantle 🌳KGEN | REQUEST A DEMO https://bankless.cc/KGEN-podcast 💠BIT DIGITAL ($BTBT) | ETH TREASURY https://bankless.cc/bit-digital We’re being compensated by Bit Digital (NASDAQ BTBT) for this segment promoting their company and BTBT. The compensation is paid in cash as a one time payment. You can find additional information about Bit Digital and BTBT on their Investor page at https://bit-digital.com/investors --- TIMESTAMPS 0:00 Intro 3:04 Guest Intro & ZK L2 “Why” 4:58 L2 Security & Verifiability 11:35 Verifiable Matching & Liquidations 14:02 Mainnet Launch & Liquidation Stress Test 18:16 Outage: Timeline & Make-Good 18:58 Scorecard: Lighter vs Hyperliquid vs Binance 22:20 ADL 101: Why Automated Deleveraging Exists 32:32 “Customer-First” Design Stance 38:32 Takeaways: Transparency, Proofs, Details 41:48 Causes Considered & Vlad’s Market Lens 49:31 Why a Perp DEX: Product & Fit 57:42 L1 vs L2: Tradeoffs, Sovereignty, Incentives 1:06:45 Roadmap: Spot, ZKVM Sidecar, Cross-Margin, New Markets 1:11:21 Points, Token Timing & Transparency 1:15:31 Closing Thoughts --- RESOURCES Vladimir Novakovski https://x.com/vnovakovski Lighter https://x.com/lighter_xyz --- Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures

Vladimir Novakovski

Founder & CEO

Lighter

Welcome to The Chopping Block – where crypto insiders Haseeb Qureshi, Tom Schmidt, Tarun Chitra, and Robert Leshner chop it up about the latest in crypto. This week, we’re joined by Vlad, the leverage legend behind Lighter, a zk-powered DEX taking aim at Hyperliquid in the rising CLOB wars. We unpack the new Token Transparency Framework from Blockworks and whether self-regulation can fix crypto’s disclosure problem. Should VC wallets be public? Are market-making deals legally risky? And why do most projects still say nothing? Plus: Vlad explains how Lighter uses zero-knowledge proofs to enforce fairness and fight toxic flow—without harming retail. And Circle’s stock goes full meme mode, TikTok retail piles in, and Robert reveals he’s short. Is crypto finally growing up—or just evolving its chaos? Show highlights 🔹 Token Transparency Framework Debated – Blockworks’ 40-point voluntary disclosure system sparks industry-wide discussion on what teams and investors should reveal 🔹 Disclosures vs. Reality – Most projects don’t lie—they just don’t publish. The real problem isn’t fraud, it’s silence 🔹 VC Wallets Stay Dark – Debate over whether investor wallet addresses and cost bases should be disclosed; consensus: team vesting should be public, investor holdings still a gray area 🔹 Exchange Listings & Disclosures – Exchanges are considering using the transparency framework to prioritize listings, creating pressure for teams to comply 🔹 CLOB Wars Continue – Lighter joins the battle against Hyperliquid with zk-proven verifiability and zero-fee trading for retail 🔹 Lighter’s Architecture Edge – Built as a ZK L2 on Ethereum, Lighter pitches composability + security vs. Hyperliquid’s standalone stack 🔹 Fighting Toxic Flow – Instead of cancel-order tricks, Lighter adds subtle latency and fee mechanics to penalize HFT bots without harming retail 🔹 Dark Pools for DeFi? – Vlad teases ZK-based private order flow as a future feature, merging institutional behavior with onchain guarantees 🔹 DEX Future = Specialization – Vlad predicts no single winner: future DEXs will specialize in niches—memecoins, structured products, prediction markets 🔹 Circle Becomes a Meme Stock – Robert discloses his short position as retail pumps Circle to an $80B FDV off TikTok hype and the Genius Act tailwinds ⭐️Haseeb Qureshi, Managing Partner at Dragonfly ⭐️Robert Leshner, CEO & Co-founder of Superstate⭐️Tom Schmidt, General Partner at Dragonfly  Guest ⭐️ Vladimir Novakovski, CEO & Founder of Lighter Token Transparency by Blockworks: https://blockworks.co/token-transparency  Timestamps 00:00 Intro 01:49 Token Transparency Report by Blockworks 04:17 Token Disclosures 08:52 Challenges and Future of Token Transparency 23:22 Circle Mania Continues 25:06 Circle Valuation and Market Reactions 30:15 CLOB Wars 36:52 Technical Architecture and Verifiability 47:04 Market Structure and Future of DeFi Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Vlad

Founder

Lighter

Dan Elitzer, investor at IDEO CoLab Ventures, and Will Price, data scientist at Flipside Crypto, discuss the yield farming craze. In this episode, we cover: the goals of protocols offering liquidity mining the goals of users yield farming right now whether users of Compound will have much awareness of COMP in the future how Compound is trying to dampen inorganic activity and properly align incentives  how incentives in one DeFi protocol can screw up another's such as changes in Compound's liquidity mining program causing Dai to lose its peg whether the activity created by liquidity mining is sustainable and how whether Compound is overvalued and how to determine valuations for DeFi tokens the security risks that come with trying yield farming how teams can keep their protocols safe given the composability of DeFi and the growing number of developments in the space whether the yield farming craze will cause the price of ETH to rise and why the prevalence of stablecoins might prevent that whether new DeFi tokens could push flagging layer 1s out of the top 10 what will happen if even more Bitcoin comes to DeFi how the next big thing in DeFi might be trying to stack yield across protocols and eventually prime brokerage protocols Thank you to our sponsor! Crypto.com: https://www.crypto.com   Episode links:  Dan Elitzer: https://twitter.com/delitzer IDEO CoLab Ventures: https://www.ideocolab.com/ventures/ Will Price: https://twitter.com/will__price Flipside Crypto: https://flipsidecrypto.com   Total value locked in Compound: https://defipulse.com/compound   What liquidity bootstrapping pools are: https://medium.com/balancer-protocol/building-liquidity-into-token-distribution-a49d4286e0d4    Dan on earning more from borrowing USDT than lending it on Compound: https://twitter.com/delitzer/status/1272642107128164354    Tony Sheng on how yield farming works and how much you can earn from it: https://twitter.com/tonysheng/status/1274393189231689728   And his followup on the risks of yield farming: https://twitter.com/tonysheng/status/1274780457729617920   The purpose of COMP for governance: https://medium.com/compound-finance/compound-community-ownership-ee0ed1252cc3  https://medium.com/compound-finance/expanding-compound-governance-ce13fcd4fe36   Risks of so much BAT being held in Compound: https://twitter.com/spencernoon/status/1276897377446776832?s=20 https://twitter.com/defiprime/status/1277026665952980992?s=20 https://twitter.com/devops199fan/status/1274732220192829441?s=20   Cyrus of MakerDAO concerned about the risks COMP poses to the Dai peg: https://forum.makerdao.com/t/upcoming-comp-farming-change-could-impact-the-dai-peg/2965   Dan Guido and Taylor Monahan on Unchained discussing DeFi security: https://unchainedpodcast.com/defi-security-with-so-many-hacks-will-it-ever-be-safe/   Twitter discussion on whether ETH price will rise due to yield farming: https://twitter.com/RyanSAdams/status/1274781676875452421   What will happen to other Layer 1s? https://twitter.com/Shaughnessy119/status/1274376237239189504?s=20  Aquaponic yield farming: https://bankless.substack.com/p/aquaponic-yield-farming Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dan Elitzer

Co-Founder

NASCENTIDEO CoLab VenturesYam Finance

Will Price

Data Scientist

Flipside CryptoLighter