What makes something truly *intelligent?* Is a rock an agent? Could a perfect simulation of your brain actually *be* you? In this fascinating conversation, Dr. Jeff Beck takes us on a journey through the philosophical and technical foundations of agency, intelligence, and the future of AI.
Jeff doesn't hold back on the big questions. He argues that from a purely mathematical perspective, there's no structural difference between an agent and a rock – both execute policies that map inputs to outputs. The real distinction lies in *sophistication* – how complex are the internal computations? Does the system engage in planning and counterfactual reasoning, or is it just a lookup table that happens to give the right answers?
*Key topics explored in this conversation:*
*The Black Box Problem of Agency* – How can we tell if something is truly planning versus just executing a pre-computed response? Jeff explains why this question is nearly impossible to answer from the outside, and why the best we can do is ask which model gives us the simplest explanation.
*Energy-Based Models Explained* – A masterclass on how EBMs differ from standard neural networks. The key insight: traditional networks only optimize weights, while energy-based models optimize *both* weights and internal states – a subtle but profound distinction that connects to Bayesian inference.
*Why Your Brain Might Have Evolved from Your Nose* – One of the most surprising moments in the conversation. Jeff proposes that the complex, non-smooth nature of olfactory space may have driven the evolution of our associative cortex and planning abilities.
*The JEPA Revolution* – A deep dive into Yann LeCun's Joint Embedding Prediction Architecture and why learning in latent space (rather than predicting every pixel) might be the key to more robust AI representations.
*AI Safety Without Skynet Fears* – Jeff takes a refreshingly grounded stance on AI risk. He's less worried about rogue superintelligences and more concerned about humans becoming "reward function selectors" – couch potatoes who just approve or reject AI outputs. His proposed solution? Use inverse reinforcement learning to derive AI goals from observed human behavior, then make *small* perturbations rather than naive commands like "end world hunger."
Whether you're interested in the philosophy of mind, the technical details of modern machine learning, or just want to understand what makes intelligence *tick,* this conversation delivers insights you won't find anywhere else.
---
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 Geometric Deep Learning & Physical Symmetries
00:00:56 Defining Agency: From Rocks to Planning
00:05:25 The Black Box Problem & Counterfactuals
00:08:45 Simulated Agency vs. Physical Reality
00:12:55 Energy-Based Models & Test-Time Training
00:17:30 Bayesian Inference & Free Energy
00:20:07 JEPA, Latent Space, & Non-Contrastive Learning
00:27:07 Evolution of Intelligence & Modular Brains
00:34:00 Scientific Discovery & Automated Experimentation
00:38:04 AI Safety, Enfeeblement & The Future of Work
---
REFERENCES:
Concept:
[00:00:58] Free Energy Principle (FEP)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_energy_principle
[00:06:00] Monte Carlo Tree Search
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Carlo_tree_search
Book:
[00:09:00] The Intentional Stance
https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262540537/the-intentional-stance/
Paper:
[00:13:00] A Tutorial on Energy-Based Learning (LeCun 2006)
http://yann.lecun.com/exdb/publis/pdf/lecun-06.pdf
[00:15:00] Auto-Encoding Variational Bayes (VAE)
https://arxiv.org/abs/1312.6114
[00:20:15] JEPA (Joint Embedding Prediction Architecture)
https://openreview.net/forum?id=BZ5a1r-kVsf
[00:22:30] The Wake-Sleep Algorithm
https://www.cs.toronto.edu/~hinton/absps/ws.pdf
<trunc, see rescript>
---
RESCRIPT:
https://app.rescript.info/public/share/DJlSbJ_Qx080q315tWaqMWn3PixCQsOcM4Kf1IW9_Eo
PDF:
https://app.rescript.info/api/public/sessions/0efec296b9b6e905/pdf
Dr. Jeff Beck, mathematician turned computational neuroscientist, joins us for a fascinating deep dive into why the future of AI might look less like ChatGPT and more like your own brain.
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*What if the key to building truly intelligent machines isn't bigger models, but smarter ones?*
In this conversation, Jeff makes a compelling case that we've been building AI backwards. While the tech industry races to scale up transformers and language models, Jeff argues we're missing something fundamental: the brain doesn't work like a giant prediction engine. It works like a scientist, constantly testing hypotheses about a world made of *objects* that interact through *forces* — not pixels and tokens.
*The Bayesian Brain* — Jeff explains how your brain is essentially running the scientific method on autopilot. When you combine what you see with what you hear, you're doing optimal Bayesian inference without even knowing it. This isn't just philosophy — it's backed by decades of behavioral experiments showing humans are surprisingly efficient at handling uncertainty.
*AutoGrad Changed Everything* — Forget transformers for a moment. Jeff argues the real hero of the AI boom was automatic differentiation, which turned AI from a math problem into an engineering problem. But in the process, we lost sight of what actually makes intelligence work.
*The Cat in the Warehouse Problem* — Here's where it gets practical. Imagine a warehouse robot that's never seen a cat. Current AI would either crash or make something up. Jeff's approach? Build models that *know what they don't know*, can phone a friend to download new object models on the fly, and keep learning continuously. It's like giving robots the ability to say "wait, what IS that?" instead of confidently being wrong.
*Why Language is a Terrible Model for Thought* — In a provocative twist, Jeff argues that grounding AI in language (like we do with LLMs) is fundamentally misguided. Self-report is the least reliable data in psychology — people routinely explain their own behavior incorrectly. We should be grounding AI in physics, not words.
*The Future is Lots of Little Models* — Instead of one massive neural network, Jeff envisions AI systems built like video game engines: thousands of small, modular object models that can be combined, swapped, and updated independently. It's more efficient, more flexible, and much closer to how we actually think.
Rescript: https://app.rescript.info/public/share/D-b494t8DIV-KRGYONJghvg-aelMmxSDjKthjGdYqsE
---
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 Introduction & The Bayesian Brain
00:01:25 Bayesian Inference & Information Processing
00:05:17 The Brain Metaphor: From Levers to Computers
00:10:13 Micro vs. Macro Causation & Instrumentalism
00:16:59 The Active Inference Community & AutoGrad
00:22:54 Object-Centered Models & The Grounding Problem
00:35:50 Scaling Bayesian Inference & Architecture Design
00:48:05 The Cat in the Warehouse: Solving Generalization
00:58:17 Alignment via Belief Exchange
01:05:24 Deception, Emergence & Cellular Automata
---
REFERENCES:
Paper:
[00:00:24] Zoubin Ghahramani (Google DeepMind)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3538441/pdf/rsta201
[00:19:20] Mamba: Linear-Time Sequence Modeling
https://arxiv.org/abs/2312.00752
[00:27:36] xLSTM: Extended Long Short-Term Memory
https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.04517
[00:41:12] 3D Gaussian Splatting
https://repo-sam.inria.fr/fungraph/3d-gaussian-splatting/
[01:07:09] Lenia: Biology of Artificial Life
https://arxiv.org/abs/1812.05433
[01:08:20] Growing Neural Cellular Automata
https://distill.pub/2020/growing-ca/
[01:14:05] DreamCoder
https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.08381
[01:14:58] The Genomic Bottleneck
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-11786-6
Person:
[00:16:42] Karl Friston (UCL)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNYWi996Beg
US Treasuries are the most important market in the world. With some $29 trillion outstanding, they create the benchmark that informs basically every other type of borrowing. Any changes to how the bond market works would be a massive deal. But lately, there's been a lot of chatter about how the Trump administration could radically restructure and refinance the US debt under the so-called "Mar-a-Lago Accord." In this episode, we speak with University of Virginia law professor Mitu Gulati about how far the administration could go to legally reform this huge and important market. We also talk about how to buy Greenland and whether Trump could make a few billion by collecting on some old loans from allies.
Read more:
One Way for Trump to Find a Few Extra Trillion Dollars
The Stories We Tell Ourselves About Bonds
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There's been a lot of talk about private credit in recent years. The market has exploded in size, and there are worries that it could be a bubble that eventually bursts and sparks disaster. But there are other negative effects from private credit that might already be happening. In a new paper called "The Credit Markets Go Dark," co-authors Harvard Law School professor Jared Ellias and Duke University School of Law professor Elisabeth de Fontenay argue that the $1.5 trillion market for private credit is already having a big impact on the economy — and not in a good way. They say that the rise of private credit marks a seismic change for corporate governance and dynamism.
Read More:
Odd Lots Newsletter: The Black Hole of Private Credit
Private Credit Pushes Deeper Into Risk That Wall Street Is Fleeing
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Dan Ariely, a professor of psychology and behavioral economics at Duke University, joins Scott to discuss what makes rational people believe seemingly irrational things. He also shares how we avoid certain facts when we don’t like the solution, as well as how a lack of trust in one area can spiral into others.
Follow Professor Ariely on X, @danariely.
Scott opens with his thoughts on the podcast space and then discusses why tech companies are still laying people off in droves.
Algebra of Happiness: the role of parents.
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We're sharing a few of Nathan's favorite AI scouting episodes from other shows. Today: Nita Farahani shares her insights with 80,000 Hours' Luisa Rodriguez on the current state of neurotechnology and its potential impacts on various fields, including work, healthcare, privacy, and even human cognition. The discussion includes Farahani's assessment of devices like SmartCap and Neuralink, the concept of cognitive liberty, the risks of the technology, and the need for proper regulation and ethical considerations.
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Nita Farahany is a professor of law and philosophy at Duke Law School and discusses the applications of cutting-edge neurotechnology.
You can subscribe to The 80,000 Hours Podcast here: https://80000hours.org/podcast/
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TIMESTAMPS:
(00:00) Nathan intro's this episode with Nita Farahany
(03:26) The Future of Neurotechnology: From Neuralink to Meta
(05:40) The Potential of Brain-Computer Interfaces in Military Applications
(11:29) The Role of Neurotechnology in National Security
(15:20) SPONSORS: SHOPIFY | NETSUITE
(18:14) The Potential of Brain-Computer Interfaces in Communication and Data Transfer
(21:19) The Future of Super Soldiers and Brain-Controlled Drones
(32:20) SPONSORS: OMNEKY
(41:05) The Controversial Realm of Neurotechnology Weapons
(45:16) Ideal International Agreements for Weapon Regulation
(47:01) The Threat of Hacking in Neurotechnology
(50:36) Brain Signatures for Identification
(01:11:28) The Future of Neurotechnology in the Workplace
(01:24:59) The Intrusion of Brain Decoding into Personal Relationships
(01:30:00) Regulating Brain Decoding: A Call for a Change in Worldview
(01:38:03) The Impact of Neurotechnology on Identity and Self-Perception
(01:41:47) The Future of Cognitive Enhancement and Transhumanism
(01:46:21) The Role of Neurotechnology in Addressing Neurological Diseases
(01:51:04) The Dark Side of Neurotechnology: Hacking and Manipulation
(01:54:50) The Importance of Cognitive Liberty in Neurotechnology
(01:55:15) The Future of Neurotechnology: Best and Worst Case Scenarios
This show is produced by Turpentine: a network of podcasts, newsletters, and more, covering technology, business, and culture — all from the perspective of industry insiders and experts. We’re launching new shows every week, and we’re looking for industry-leading sponsors — if you think that might be you and your company, email us at erik@turpentine.co.
We’ve made it to our final episode of 2023! Please enjoy as we highlight a few of the blue flame thinkers who joined us on the pod this year.
Episodes in order of guest appearances:
Conversation with Mustafa Suleyman — The Proliferation of AI & the Next Wave of Technology
The Promises and Perils of Neurotechnology – with Nita Farahany
Behind the Scenes of SVB’s Collapse + A Vision for America — with Ro Khanna
The State of Play: Markets, Economy, and Ukraine & China’s Growing Power, US Diplomacy, and Ukraine’s Counteroffensive — with Ian Bremmer
Conversation with Fareed Zakaria — The Conflict in Israel and the State of Foreign Affairs
Capitalism, Private Equity, and the Seven Deadly Sins — with Stephen Dubner
The Psychology of Money — with Morgan Housel
Conversation with Jennifer B. Wallace — What to Do About Toxic Achievement Culture
How to Get Unstuck — with Adam Alter
Conversation with Jennifer Cohen — Building Healthy Habits and Staying Confident
Understanding AI’s Threats and Opportunities — with Mo Gawdat
Masculinity, Media, and How to Citizen – with Baratunde Thurston
Conversation with Simon Sinek — Finding Your Why, Feeling Stuck, and Building Strong Leaders
Scott closes by thanking YOU for supporting the Prof G Pod in 2023.
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Dr. Jeff Beck is a computational neuroscientist studying probabilistic reasoning (decision making under uncertainty) in humans and animals with emphasis on neural representations of uncertainty and cortical implementations of probabilistic inference and learning. His line of research incorporates information theoretic and hierarchical statistical analysis of neural and behavioural data as well as reinforcement learning and active inference.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-beck...
https://scholar.google.com/citations?...
Interviewer: Dr. Tim Scarfe
TOC
00:00:00 Intro
00:00:51 Bayesian / Knowledge
00:14:57 Active inference
00:18:58 Mediation
00:23:44 Philosophy of mind / science
00:29:25 Optimisation
00:42:54 Emergence
00:56:38 Steering emergent systems
01:04:31 Work plan
01:06:06 Representations/Core knowledge
#activeinference
Neurotechnology, or devices that let you track your own brain activity, could help you deeply understand your health. But without privacy protections, your innermost thoughts, emotions and desires could be at risk of exploitation, says neurotech and AI ethicist Nita Farahany. She details some of the field's promising potential uses -- like tracking and treating diseases from depression to epilepsy -- and shares concerns about who collects our brain data and how they plan to use it, ultimately calling for the legal recognition of "cognitive liberty" as we connect our brains and minds to technology.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
Nita Farahany (The Battle For Your Brain) is an author, professor, and scholar. Nita joins the Armchair Expert to discuss the effects of implementing brain wave monitoring, what body politics are, and how AI is currently being used to predict human behavior. Nita and Dax talk about the fears they have surrounding neurotechnology, whether transferring a person's consciousness will be possible some day, and how fast surveillance is normalized. Nita explains why the definition of death is being debated, how privacy practices often don't align with privacy preferences, and what cognitive rights laws could look like in the future.
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Nita Farahany, a professor of law at Duke University and the author of “The Battle for Your Brain: Defending the Right to Think Freely in the Age of Neurotechnology,” joins Scott to discuss the threat to our privacy and freedom of thought, and the future of neurotechnology. Follow Nita on Twitter, @NitaFarahany.
Scott opens by discussing the Biden Administration’s announcement that chip manufacturers that access $150M+ funding from the CHIPS Act must provide childcare. He then shares his thoughts on the bipartisan effort to take action against TikTok.
Algebra of Happiness: expressing love.
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There’s a big question over whether Russia will be able (or willing) to make payments on billions of dollars it’s borrowed from investors given its current situation. Not only does the country have a history of previous major defaults, but some of its outstanding bonds are also structured kind of strangely. On this episode of the Odd Lots podcast, Tracy Alloway and Joe Weisenthal speak with University of Virginia law professor Mitu Gulati and University of North Carolina's Mark Weidemaier. They describe how odd some Russian bonds are and what might happen after default.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Nearly 200 years ago, the colonialist French power granted independence to Haiti. But it did so under the brutal condition that it pay 150 million francs in exchange for its freedom. This was a staggering sum that imposed a staggering imposition on the Haitian economy. And there's good reason to believe that that initial debt contributed to the ongoing poverty in the country. On this episode, we speak with law professor Mitu Gulati and economist Ugo Panizza about this odious debt, the significance of this burden, and the ongoing efforts for Haiti to obtain reparations.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
In episode thirteen of The Robot Brains Podcast we meet Mary "Missy" Cummings, former US Airforce fighter pilot and Professor at the Duke University Pratt School of Engineering. Missy tells us her incredible story moving from the theatre of war to the laboratories of computer sciences and explains how she became one of the chief proponents in the movement to ensure AI-to-human (like autonomous vehicles) interactions have stricter safety controls. During her chat with our host Pieter Abbeel, Missy also talks about her non-feud feud with Elon Musk and Tesla's autonomous vehicles, the role of AI and robotics in the military and how AI robots need to be built with human-centric safety controls. Host: Pieter Abbeel | Executive Producers: Ricardo Reyes & Henry Tobias Jones | Audio Production: Kieron Matthew Banerji | Title Music: Alejandro Del Pozo Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
Dan Ariely is one of the most famous behavioral economists in the world. And in his latest act, he's attempted to apply his research to investing. His five-year-old firm Irrational Capital searches out companies that foster human capital: that companies which do a better job of nurturing their employees see stock market outperformance. In this episode, we talk about why human capital matters, how to measure it, and what kind of investment returns he's seen by betting on it.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
The economic crisis will result in an extraordinary amount of pain for emerging markets. In addition to the health disruption, the global economic collapse means that in many cases, exports have come to a standstill. So how can poorer countries be helped right now? On this episode, we speak with three experts in the field of sovereign debt. Lee Buchheit is formerly at Cleary Gottlieb and is considered to be the world’s foremost expert on sovereign debt law and restructurings. Mitu Gulati is a professor at Duke University School of Law and Ugo Panizza is a professor at the Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies in Geneva. The three have been working throughout the crisis to help put together a comprehensive aid plan for EMs. They talk to us about what it would look like, and why moving it forward has proven to be so difficult.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Today we are joined by Cynthia Rudin, Professor of Computer Science, Electrical and Computer Engineering, and Statistical Science at Duke University. In this episode we discuss her paper, ‘Please Stop Explaining Black Box Models for High Stakes Decisions’, and how interpretable models make for more comprehensible decisions - extremely important when dealing with human lives. Cynthia explains black box and interpretable models, their development, use cases, and her future plans in the field.
In this episode, I’m joined by Missy Cummings, head of Duke University’s Humans and Autonomy Lab and professor in the department of mechanical engineering. In addition to being an accomplished researcher, Missy also became one of the first female fighter pilots in the US Navy following the repeal of the Combat Exclusion Policy in 1993. We discuss Missy’s research into the infrastructural and operational challenges presented by autonomous vehicles, including cars, drones and unmanned aircraft. We also cover trust, explainability, and interactions between humans and AV systems. This was an awesome interview and i'm glad we’re able to bring it to you! The notes for this show can be found at twimlai.com/talk/128.
Dan Ariely is a leading behaviorical economist, 3 time best-selling author, and he is the first guest to appear multiple times on Maker Stories. In this episode we talk about Dan’s new documentary on dishonesty and cheating and why people cheat in sports, politics, relationships. I also ask him about his favorite thinkers, the limits of behavioral economics, how he met his wife, and how he views the term ‘success’ If you liked this episode, check out these other episodes with Dan Ariely: https://soundcloud.com/product-hunt/maker-stories-episode-6-w-dan-ariely https://soundcloud.com/product-hunt/dan-ariely-pt-1
Dan Ariely is worth listening to pretty much on any topic. In this interview we touch upon college, lying, alzheimers, relationships, online-dating, and much more. This is Part II of my interview with Dan. in Part I, we chatted about products, tech, academia and more: https://soundcloud.com/product-hunt/dan-ariely-pt-1
David and Katie talk to Dr. Jeffery Taekman, a physician, researcher and educator at Duke. Jeff takes us through his various workflows for getting work done in his profession including using his iPad in his medical practice.
Thanks to MPU listener Jigar Talati for assistance with the shownotes this week!
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Guest Starring:
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Links and Show Notes:
Links for this episode:
Jeff Taekman- About.me
Max Barky (MaxBarky) on Twitter
Rascal of the Internet
Jeff Taekman's WiPPP - Workflows in Personal and Professional Productivity
Collected from: Jeff Taekman's WiPPP - Workflows in Personal and Professional Productivity
http://wippp.com/blog/feed/
https://twitter.com/JeffreyTaekman
http://www.linkedin.com/in/jtaekman
Mac Power Users 100: Awesome MPU Listeners
For show 100, Katie and David are joined by several amazing listeners (including academics, authors, pilots, and more) as they talk through their own Mac and iOS workflows.
Writing Workflows: Collecting Information in Papers2 (MacPowerUsers Show 100) - Jeff Taekman's WiPPP
Simulation game - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A simulation game attempts to copy various activities from "real life" in the form of a game for various purposes such as training, analysis, or prediction.
Epic Games
Unity - Game Engine
The Society for Simulation in Healthcare
Star Wars®: Knights of the Old Republic™ on the App Store
Çingleton on Vimeo
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zaggfolio | ZAGG
My Google Glass Pickup Experience, Chelsea Market, New York City
Google+ Hangouts
what are cognitive aids? | CogAIDS
Sometimes called “checklists”, we think of cognitive aids in medicine as structured pieces of information designed to enhance cognition and adherence to medical best practices.
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Byword • Simple and efficient text editor for Mac, iPhone and iPad.
Simple and efficient text editing for Mac, iPhone and iPad.
Editorial for iPad
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Mac Power Users 156: Editorial with Federico Viticci
Papers for Mac
Papers is an Apple Design Award and Ars Design Award winning solution for managing research literature.
EndNote | Thomson Reuters
DEVONthink — Smart document management for Mac
Literature and Latte - Scrivener Writing Software
Fiddling with Ulysses III — MacSparky
Skim | Home
Skim is a PDF reader and note-taker for OS X. It is designed to help you read and annotate scientific papers in PDF, but is also great for viewing any PDF file.
MindNode
Tinderbox: The Tool For Notes
iThoughts HD
Meeting Workflows: Processing Meeting Notes and Discovering Linkages - Jeff Taekman's WiPPP
Drafts - Agile Tortoise
nvALT - BrettTerpstra.com
Drink!
OmniFocus - The Omni Group
How to take meeting notes that really work | Macworld
Jeff Taekman, M.D. Macworld Article on making meeting notes.
Dragon - Dragon NaturallySpeaking - Nuance - Nuance
Dragon Medical - Nuance - Dragon Medical
Pocket
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Voice Dream: Text To Speech App
BusyCal by BusyMac
Bowtie
Bowtie is a desktop accessory that allows you to see and control your music (iTunes, Spotify, Sonora, or Rdio) with customizable shortcuts, advanced Last.fm support, and hundreds of beautiful themes available to download for free.
Cobook Contacts for Mac
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More Power Users: Ad-free episodes with regular bonus segments
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