The third golden age of software engineering – thanks to AI, with Grady Booch
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Every few decades, software engineering is declared “dead” or on the verge of being automated away. We’ve heard versions of this story before. But what if it’s just the start of a new “golden age” of a different type of software engineering, like it has been many times before?
In this episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I’m joined once again by Grady Booch, one of the most influential figures in the history of software engineering, to put today’s claims about AI and automation into historical context.
Grady is the co-creator of the Unified Modeling Language, author of several books and papers that have shaped modern software development, and Chief Scientist for Software Engineering at IBM, where he focuses on embodied cognition.
Grady shares his perspective on three golden ages of computing since the 1940s, and how each emerged in response to the constraints of its time. He explains how technical limits and human factors have always shaped the systems we build, and why periods of rapid change tend to produce both real progress and inflated expectations.
He also responds to current claims that software engineering will soon be fully automated, explaining why systems thinking, human judgment, and responsibility remain central to the work, even as tools continue to evolve.
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Timestamps
(00:00) Intro
(01:04) The first golden age of software engineering
(18:05) The software crisis
(32:07) The second golden age of software engineering
(41:27) Y2K and the Dotcom crash
(44:53) Early AI
(46:40) The third golden age of software engineering
(50:54) Why software engineers will very much be needed
(57:52) Grady responds to Dario Amodei
(1:06:00) New skills engineers will need to succeed
(1:09:10) Resources for studying complex systems
(1:13:39) How to thrive during periods of change
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The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:
• When AI writes almost all code, what happens to software engineering?
• Inside a five-year-old startup’s rapid AI makeover
• Software architecture with Grady Booch
• What is old is new again
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Software architecture with Grady Booch
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Welcome to The Pragmatic Engineer! Today, I’m thrilled to be joined by Grady Booch, a true legend in software development. Grady is the Chief Scientist for Software Engineering at IBM, where he leads groundbreaking research in embodied cognition.
He’s the mind behind several object-oriented design concepts, a co-author of the Unified Modeling Language, and a founding member of the Agile Alliance and the Hillside Group.
Grady has authored six books, hundreds of articles, and holds prestigious titles as an IBM, ACM, and IEEE Fellow, as well as a recipient of the Lovelace Medal (an award for those with outstanding contributions to the advancement of computing). In this episode, we discuss:
• What it means to be an IBM Fellow
• The evolution of the field of software development
• How UML was created, what its goals were, and why Grady disagrees with the direction of later versions of UML
• Pivotal moments in software development history
• How the software architect role changed over the last 50 years
• Why Grady declined to be the Chief Architect of Microsoft – saying no to Bill Gates!
• Grady’s take on large language models (LLMs)
• Advice to less experienced software engineers
• … and much more!
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Timestamps
(00:00) Intro
(01:56) What it means to be a Fellow at IBM
(03:27) Grady’s work with legacy systems
(09:25) Some examples of domains Grady has contributed to
(11:27) The evolution of the field of software development
(16:23) An overview of the Booch method
(20:00) Software development prior to the Booch method
(22:40) Forming Rational Machines with Paul and Mike
(25:35) Grady’s work with Bjarne Stroustrup
(26:41) ROSE and working with the commercial sector
(30:19) How Grady built UML with Ibar Jacobson and James Rumbaugh
(36:08) An explanation of UML and why it was a mistake to turn it into a programming language
(40:25) The IBM acquisition and why Grady declined Bill Gates’s job offer
(43:38) Why UML is no longer used in industry
(52:04) Grady’s thoughts on formal methods
(53:33) How the software architect role changed over time
(1:01:46) Disruptive changes and major leaps in software development
(1:07:26) Grady’s early work in AI
(1:12:47) Grady’s work with Johnson Space Center
(1:16:41) Grady’s thoughts on LLMs
(1:19:47) Why Grady thinks we are a long way off from sentient AI
(1:25:18) Grady’s advice to less experienced software engineers
(1:27:20) What’s next for Grady
(1:29:39) Rapid fire round
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The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:
• The Past and Future of Modern Backend Practices https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-past-and-future-of-backend-practices
• What Changed in 50 Years of Computing https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/what-changed-in-50-years-of-computing
• AI Tooling for Software Engineers: Reality Check https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/ai-tooling-2024
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Where to find Grady Booch:
• X: https://x.com/grady_booch
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gradybooch
• Website: https://computingthehumanexperience.com
Where to find Gergely:
• Newsletter: https://www.pragmaticengineer.com/
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/mrgergelyorosz
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gergelyorosz/
• X: https://x.com/GergelyOrosz
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References and Transcripts:
See the transcript and other references from the episode at https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast
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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@pragmaticengineer.com.
Get full access to The Pragmatic Engineer at newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/subscribe
Don't fear superintelligent AI | Grady Booch
New tech spawns new anxieties, says scientist and philosopher Grady Booch, but we don't need to be afraid an all-powerful, unfeeling AI. Booch allays our worst (sci-fi induced) fears about superintelligent computers by explaining how we'll teach, not program, them to share our human values. Rather than worry about an unlikely existential threat, he urges us to consider how artificial intelligence will enhance human life.
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