Turing

Tim sits down with Max Bennett to explore how our brains evolved over 600 million years—and what that means for understanding both human intelligence and AI. Max isn't a neuroscientist by training. He's a tech entrepreneur who got curious, started reading, and ended up weaving together three fields that rarely talk to each other: comparative psychology (what different animals can actually do), evolutionary neuroscience (how brains changed over time), and AI (what actually works in practice). *Your Brain Is a Guessing Machine* You don't actually "see" the world. Your brain builds a simulation of what it *thinks* is out there and just uses your eyes to check if it's right. That's why optical illusions work—your brain is filling in a triangle that isn't there, or can't decide if it's looking at a duck or a rabbit. *Rats Have Regrets* *Chimps Are Machiavellian* *Language Is the Human Superpower* *Does ChatGPT Think?* (truncated description, more on rescript) Understanding how the brain evolved isn't just about the past. It gives us clues about: - What's actually different between human intelligence and AI - Why we're so easily fooled by status games and tribal thinking - What features we might want to build into—or leave out of—future AI systems Get Max's book: https://www.amazon.com/Brief-History-Intelligence-Humans-Breakthroughs/dp/0063286343 Rescript: https://app.rescript.info/public/share/R234b7AXyDXZusqQ_43KMGsUSvJ2TpSz2I3emnI6j9A --- TIMESTAMPS: 00:00:00 Introduction: Outsider's Advantage & Neocortex Theories 00:11:34 Perception as Inference: The Filling-In Machine 00:19:11 Understanding, Recognition & Generative Models 00:36:39 How Mice Plan: Vicarious Trial & Error 00:46:15 Evolution of Self: The Layer 4 Mystery 00:58:31 Ancient Minds & The Social Brain: Machiavellian Apes 01:19:36 AI Alignment, Instrumental Convergence & Status Games 01:33:07 Metacognition & The IQ Paradox 01:48:40 Does GPT Have Theory of Mind? 02:00:40 Memes, Language Singularity & Brain Size Myths 02:16:44 Communication, Language & The Cyborg Future 02:44:25 Shared Fictions, World Models & The Reality Gap --- REFERENCES:Person: [00:00:05] Karl Friston (UCL) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNYWi996Beg [00:00:06] Jeff Hawkins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VQILbDqaI4 [00:12:19] Hermann von Helmholtz https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hermann-helmholtz/ [00:38:34] David Redish (U. Minnesota) https://redishlab.umn.edu/ [01:10:19] Robin Dunbar https://www.psy.ox.ac.uk/people/robin-dunbar [01:15:04] Emil Menzel https://www.sciencedirect.com/bookseries/behavior-of-nonhuman-primates/vol/5/suppl/C [01:19:49] Nick Bostrom https://nickbostrom.com/ [02:28:25] Noam Chomsky https://linguistics.mit.edu/user/chomsky/ [03:01:22] Judea Pearl https://samueli.ucla.edu/people/judea-pearl/ Concept/Framework: [00:05:04] Active Inference https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkR24ieh5Ow Paper: [00:35:59] Predictions not commands [Rick A Adams] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23129312/ Book: [01:25:42] The Elephant in the Brain https://www.amazon.com/Elephant-Brain-Hidden-Motives-Everyday/dp/0190495995 [01:28:27] The Status Game https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/58642436-the-status-game [02:00:40] The Selfish Gene https://amazon.com/dp/0198788606 [02:14:25] The Language Game https://www.amazon.com/Language-Game-Improvisation-Created-Changed/dp/1541674987 [02:54:40] The Evolution of Language https://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Language-Approaches/dp/052167736X [03:09:37] The Three-Body Problem https://amazon.com/dp/0765377063

Max Bennett

Author

Turing

Jonathan Siddharth is Founder and CEO of Turing, one of the fastest-growing AI companies advancing frontier models. Jonathan has led the company to an astonishing $300M ARR with just $225M raised and a profitable company. A Stanford-trained AI scientist, Jonathan previously helped pioneer natural language search at Powerset, which was acquired by Microsoft. AGENDA: 03:35 Data, Compute, Algorithms: What is Most Abundant? What is Lacking Most? 09:18 What Does No One Know About AI's Data Requirements That Everyone Should? 17:05 The Biggest Challenges Enterprises Have with AI Adoption 20:38 Why Will 99% of Knowledge Work Will be Gone in 10 Years 27:12 How Will Data-Driven Feedback Loops Replace Technology as the Moat 36:08 Who Wins the Data Labelling Market? Who Loses? 38:23 Is Revenue BS in Data Labelling? Are Players Calling GMV Revenue? 45:20 Why is SaaS Dead in a World of AI? 51:23 Will the Phone be the Primary User Interface to an AI World? 57:07 Quickfire Round

Jonathan Siddharth

Founder & CEO

Turing

Today’s show: Alex is back with three more awesome interviews with founders on the bleeding edge of innovative tech. Dr. Hon Weng Chong walks us through the basics of biological computing and Cortical Labs’ first-ever commercial computer running on living human cells. Turing founder Jonathan Siddarth unpacks the secrets of LLM benchmarking, and explains why even our most advanced tests need to get much much harder right away. Finally, Mercor founder Brendan Foody on how AI is about to reinvent the hiring process, and marrying the effectiveness of recruiters with the ease of online job boards. It’s three — count ’em, three — can’t miss TWiST interviews guaranteed to make you smarter Timestamps: (0:00) OpenAI’s GPT-5: When is it coming out? Is it going to be TOO smart? (08:06) Cortical Labs’ Hon Weng Chong on the electric connection between neuroscience and machine learning (10:20) Northwest Registered Agent. Form your entire business identity in just 10 clicks and 10 minutes. Get more privacy, more options, and more done—visit https://www.northwestregisteredagent.com/twist today! (11:27) Show Continues… (15:17) The extreme difficulty of going from the lab to a shippable product (20:00) .TECH: Say it without saying it. Head to www.get.tech/twist or your favorite registrar to get a clean, sharp .tech domain today. (21:05) Show Continues… (28:15) Why data is a factor of time (29:52) AWS Activate - AWS Activate helps startups bring their ideas to life. Apply to AWS Activate today to learn more. Visit aws.amazon.com/startups/credits (31:16) Show Continues… (42:44) Turing CEO Jonathan Siddarth explains why it’s so important to keep benchmarking our LLMs (47:24) What it means when a model “saturates” a test, and why benchmarks need to get HARDER (50:22) What happens with the LLMs can answer all of our smartest questions? (53:44) AI Agents train in gyms? Wait, really? (01:01:33) Coding teaches models how to think, and more training mysteries don’t understand (01:03:11) Brendan Foody from Mercor explains the “matching problem” that makes hiring such a pain (01:07:02) How Mercor combines a job board’s distribution with the value of a recruitment agency (01:10:49) Brendan recalls building his first AI interviewer in his college dorm (01:20:16) Mercor has the opposite of a retention problem and crazy growth Subscribe to the TWiST500 newsletter: https://ticker.thisweekinstartups.com Check out the TWIST500: https://www.twist500.com Subscribe to This Week in Startups on Apple: https://rb.gy/v19fcp Follow Lon: X: https://x.com/lons Follow Alex: X: https://x.com/alex LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexwilhelm Follow Jason: X: https://twitter.com/Jason LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasoncalacanis Thank you to our partners: (10:20) Northwest Registered Agent. Form your entire business identity in just 10 clicks and 10 minutes. Get more privacy, more options, and more done—visit https://www.northwestregisteredagent.com/twist today! (20:00) .TECH: Say it without saying it. Head to www.get.tech/twist or your favorite registrar to get a clean, sharp .tech domain today. (29:52) AWS Activate - AWS Activate helps startups bring their ideas to life. Apply to AWS Activate today to learn more. Visit aws.amazon.com/startups/credits Great TWIST interviews: Will Guidara, Eoghan McCabe, Steve Huffman, Brian Chesky, Bob Moesta, Aaron Levie, Sophia Amoruso, Reid Hoffman, Frank Slootman, Billy McFarland Check out Jason’s suite of newsletters: https://substack.com/@calacanis Follow TWiST: Twitter: https://twitter.com/TWiStartups YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thisweekin Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thisweekinstartups TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thisweekinstartups Substack: https://twistartups.substack.com Subscribe to the Founder University Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@founderuniversity1916

Hon Weng Chong

Founder

Cortical Labs

Jonathan Siddharth

Founder & CEO

Turing

Brendan Foody

Co-Founder and CEO

Mercor

In this episode of Gradient Dissent, Jonathan Siddharth, CEO & Co-Founder of Turing, joins host Lukas Biewald to discuss the path to AGI. They explore how Turing built a "developer cloud" of 3.7 million engineers to power AGI training, providing high-quality code and reasoning data to leading AI labs. Jonathan shares insights on Turing’s journey, from building coding datasets to solving enterprise AI challenges and enabling human-in-the-loop solutions. This episode offers a unique perspective on the intersection of human intelligence and AGI, with an eye on the expansion of new domains beyond coding. ✅ *Subscribe to Weights & Biases* → https://bit.ly/45BCkYz 🎙 Get our podcasts on these platforms: Apple Podcasts: http://wandb.me/apple-podcasts Spotify: http://wandb.me/spotify Google: http://wandb.me/gd_google YouTube: http://wandb.me/youtube Connect with Jonathan Siddharth: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonsid/ Follow Weights & Biases: https://twitter.com/weights_biases https://www.linkedin.com/company/wandb Join the Weights & Biases Discord Server: https://discord.gg/CkZKRNnaf3

Jonathan Siddharth

Founder & CEO

Turing

Max Bennett (A Brief History of Intelligence) is a researcher and author. Max joins the Armchair Expert to discuss his lack of an academic background, how he became interested in the way the human brain works, and why neurons evolved. Max and Dax talk about reenforcement learning, how emotions developed in the human brain, and how artificial intelligence is being designed to have curiosity. Max explains the paper clip conundrum, how language allows us to transfer thoughts, and chain of thought prompting. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Max Bennett

Author

Turing

In this episode, Nathan sits down with Max Bennett, author of the book: A Brief History of Intelligence. They discuss the five major breakthroughs in evolution that resulted in human brains and cognition. They delve deeper into the workings of each breakthrough, the evolution of intelligence, and how AI can benefit from understanding these principles. If you need an ecommerce platform, check out our sponsor Shopify: https://shopify.com/cognitive for a $1/month trial period. We're hiring across the board at Turpentine and for Erik's personal team on other projects he's incubating. He's hiring a Chief of Staff, EA, Head of Special Projects, Investment Associate, and more. For a list of JDs, check out: eriktorenberg.com. LINKS: A Brief History of Intelligence: https://a.co/d/6VPWTf7 SPONSORS: The Brave search API can be used to assemble a data set to train your AI models and help with retrieval augmentation at the time of inference. All while remaining affordable with developer first pricing, integrating the Brave search API into your workflow translates to more ethical data sourcing and more human representative data sets. Try the Brave search API for free for up to 2000 queries per month at https://brave.com/api Omneky is an omnichannel creative generation platform that lets you launch hundreds of thousands of ad iterations that actually work customized across all platforms, with a click of a button. Omneky combines generative AI and real-time advertising data. Mention "Cog Rev" for 10% off www.omneky.com NetSuite has 25 years of providing financial software for all your business needs. More than 36,000 businesses have already upgraded to NetSuite by Oracle, gaining visibility and control over their financials, inventory, HR, eCommerce, and more. If you're looking for an ERP platform ✅ head to NetSuite: http://netsuite.com/cognitive and download your own customized KPI checklist. X/SOCIAL: @labenz (Nathan) @maxsbennett (Max) @CogRev_Podcast TIMESTAMPS: (00:00) Intro (06:00) Max's background on commercializing AI in technology (09:53) AI has taught us a lot of our intuitions are wrong (11:22) Why we're better off avoiding defining intelligence (14:38) The Five Breakthrough Model - steering, reinforcing, simulating, mentalizing, and speaking (15:43) Sponsor - Brave Search API | Shopify (18:20) The story of the first breakthrough - Steering (21:40) Evolution doesn't have forethought and every generation has to survive (23:05) The study of nematodes - how did this first brain emerge? (27:10) yet in bilaterians, but the idea is you classify things in the world into good and bad. (33:00) Netsuite by Oracle | Omneky (36:16) The story of the second breakthrough - Reinforcing (1:32:44) The story of the fourth breakthrough - Mentalizing (1:45:57) The story of the fourth breakthrough - Speaking (pls listen to the audio book / read the book) (1:46:46) How evolutionary paradigms will shape up in the future (1:55:03) A unified theory of value or moral patienthood that can be applied to the five breakthroughs (1:59:21) Wrap + Sponsor | Omneky This show is produced by Turpentine: a network of podcasts, newsletters, and more, covering technology, business, and culture — all from the perspective of industry insiders and experts. We’re launching new shows every week, and we’re looking for industry-leading sponsors — if you think that might be you and your company, email us at erik@turpentine.co.

Max Bennett

Author

Turing