TRM Labs

Ari Redbord sits down with Katherine, Jessi, and Vy to talk about SEC clarity, the onshore perps boom, and DeFi's opsec problem — plus why the U.S. should hack North Korea back. Thank you to our sponsor! Cape: Your biggest crypto vulnerability isn't your wallet, it's your phone number. Cape is America's privacy-first mobile carrier that rotates your SIM identity daily and blocks SIM swaps before they happen. Get 33% off your first six months at https://cape.co/unchained (use code: UNCHAINED). The hosts of DEX in the City spend every week breaking down crypto's legal fights. This time, they're the ones answering the questions. Ari Redbord, Global Head of Policy at TRM Labs, sits down with Katherine Kirkpatrick Bos, Jessi Brooks, and Vy Le for a wide-ranging conversation on where crypto's regulatory and security battles are actually headed. Vy traces her path from SEC enforcement to her case for "tech-neutral" rules: regulators should regulate outcomes, not technology. Katherine explains why DCMs have become crypto's hottest acronym, as true perps and prediction markets move onshore. And Jessi makes her push to stop calling North Korea's hacks "illicit finance" and start naming them a national security threat: Pyongyang, she notes, is funding a weapons program with stolen crypto. Ari goes further — if North Korea can steal hundreds of millions from DeFi, the U.S. should steal it back. Vy pushes back on the panic over the recent hacks: most, she argues, weren't broken smart contracts at all, just sloppy operational security. The conversation covers SEC clarity, the CFTC's moment, DeFi security, on-chain privacy, and what it really takes to keep the ecosystem safe. Host: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Ari Redbord - Global Head of Policy at TRM Labs and Host of TRM Talks Hosts: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Katherine Kirkpatrick Bos⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, General Counsel. Previously held senior legal roles across DeFi and centralized exchanges. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jessi Brooks⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, General Counsel at Ribbit Capital⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Vy Le⁠⁠⁠ - Co-host of DEX in the City and General Counsel of Veda Timestamps 🛡️ 02:29 OFAC's first IRGC-linked exchange sanctions on Zedcex and Zedxion 🧭 05:20 How Vy, Katherine, and Jessi went from the SEC, BigLaw, and DOJ into crypto 🎙️ 14:10 The origin story behind the DEX in the City name and its all-women cast 🏛️ 18:25 Vy on the SEC trading ambiguity for rules, and "tech-neutral" regulation 📈 22:36 Katherine on why DCMs are suddenly crypto's hottest acronym 💙 25:38 Cape: Get 33% off your first six months with code unchained at https://cape.co/unchained 🩹 26:12 Jessi on reframing illicit finance around victims, not just enforcement 🔐 30:03 Jessi and Vy on Drift, Kelp, and why the recent hacks were ops failures 🕵️ 34:52 Katherine on why privacy is necessary for on-chain markets 🔮 40:04 Lightning round: Jessi on agentic finance, Katherine on perps, Vy on vaults Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ari Redbord

Head of Policy

TRM Labs

North Korea isn’t just hacking crypto anymore, it’s studying it, infiltrating it, and turning DeFi’s weakest links into a state-run revenue machine. This time around, Ryan and David sit down with Ari Redbord of TRM Labs to unpack the Drift hack, the $6B DPRK crypto crime machine, how stolen funds move through THORChain, Bitcoin, OTC desks, and Chinese laundering networks, and why the fightback may require everything from better DeFi security to real-time Beacon alerts and offensive cyber. --- 🎬 DEBRIEF | RYAN & DAVID BREAKDOWN THE EPISODE https://www.bankless.com/podcast/debrief-why-north-korea-is-winning-crypto-crime-and-how-to-fight-back-ari-redbord-trm-labs --- BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🔮POLYMARKET | #1 PREDICTION MARKET https://bankless.cc/polymarket-podcast 🟦 COINBASE ONE | GET 20% OFF https://bankless.cc/coinbase-one 🧭OKX | TRADE, EARN, PAY to OKX | 120M+ USERS WORLDWIDE https://app.okx.com/join/USBANKLESS 🦊 METAMASK | DOWNLOAD NOW https://go.metamask.io/BL-Pod-Download 🌐BRIX | EMERGING MARKET YIELD https://bankless.cc/brix 💰NEXO | Get your 30-day access to Wealth Club Premier https://bankless.cc/nexo --- TIMESTAMPS 0:00 Intro 2:16 The Drift Hack 5:15 Human Weak Points 11:16 The DPRK Hacker Network 14:56 The $6B Machine 20:32 Fighting Back 28:11 Seizures and Victims 38:58 Inside TRM Labs 47:01 Laundering Rails 52:51 The Beacon Network 58:06 Privacy vs Security 1:10:20 Code and Crime 1:14:49 Iran on Tron 1:22:55 Bitcoin and Power 1:28:49 Hardening DeFi --- RESOURCES Ari Redbord https://x.com/ARedbord TRM Labs https://www.trmlabs.com/ TRM’s DPRK Report https://www.trmlabs.com/resources/blog/north-korea-stole-76-of-all-crypto-hack-value-in-2026-with-just-two-attacks Ari’s Homeland Security Testimony https://www.congress.gov/119/meeting/house/119126/witnesses/HHRG-119-HM11-Wstate-RedbordA-20260421.pdf --- Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures

Ari Redbord

Head of Policy

TRM Labs

Cryptocurrency is being used more frequently in illegal transactions — about $158 billion was used in illicit crypto activity last year. That’s an all-time high, according to a new report from the startup TRM Labs. This comes as the overall crypto ecosystem is growing and, it should be said, legitimate uses of crypto are growing at a faster rate than illegitimate ones. Marketplace’s Stephanie Hughes spoke with Ari Redbord, global head of policy at TRM Labs and one of the authors of the new report, to learn more.

Ari Redbord

Head of Policy

TRM Labs

The second week of Sam Bankman-Fried’s criminal trial is underway, bringing emotional testimony from SBF’s ex-girlfriend and former Alameda CEO Caroline Ellison, along with some surprising stories about alleged bribes to Chinese officials and discussion about reaching out to the Saudi Crown Prince for help. Ari Redbord, Global Head of Policy at TRM Labs, discusses why the question of who was actually in charge is so critical to the case, the defense’s strategy to discredit Caroline Ellison, and why sidebars in the courtroom can get so heated.  Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Stitcher, Castbox, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform. Show highlights: Why Caroline Ellison is a critical witness on a "number of levels," according to Ari What a software developer at FTX revealed about whether SBF was directing trades Why a lawyer’s body language is something the jury looks out for  Why there have been so many sidebars in the trial and why they can sometimes get heated  The reason why the lawyers, particularly the defense team, have been so repetitive with their questions Considering the long prison sentence SBF is facing, why Ari "doesn't understand" SBF’s decision to push forward with the trial  Whether, after three days of testimonies, Ellison has come out as a credible witness for the jury Why the defense is facing an "uphill fight" and whether testimony from SBF would serve as a final Hail Mary for them Thank you to our sponsors! Crypto.com Hedera Popcorn Network Guest Ari Redbord, Global Head of Policy at TRM Labs. Previous appearances on Unchained:  Is TRM Labs Blocking Addresses From DeFi Protocols? Ari Redbord Says Yes The Legal and Regulatory Fallout From Terra’s Collapse: Who Will Pay? How Much Prison Time Is FTX’s Sam Bankman-Fried Facing? Links Previous coverage by Unchained on the trial of Sam Bankman-Fried: Sam Bankman-Fried Trial: Here's Everything That Happened So Far SBF Trial, Day 1: Possible Witnesses Include FTX Insiders, Big Names in Crypto, and SBF’s Family SBF Trial, Day 2: DOJ Says Sam Bankman-Fried ‘Lied’ While Defense Claims His Actions Were ‘Reasonable’ SBF Trial, Day 3: Why a True Believer in FTX Flipped Once He Learned One Fact SBF Trial, Day 4: SBF’s Lawyers Annoy Judge Kaplan, While Wang Reveals Alameda’s Special Privileges SBF Trial, Day 5: SBF's Defense Finally Found Its Legs, But Can It Counter Caroline Ellison? SBF Trial, Day 6: Caroline Ellison Recalls 'The Worst Week of My Life' SBF’s Lawyers Could Be Annoying the Judge. How Might That Impact the Trial? Did Sam Bankman-Fried Have Intent to Defraud FTX Investors? Here’s How Sam Bankman-Fried’s High-Stakes Trial Could Play Out SBF Trial: How Sam Bankman-Fried’s Lawyers Might Try and Win His Case The High-Stakes Trial of Sam Bankman-Fried Begins: What to Expect Go deeper into the trial:  In the SBF Case, Elite Corruption Is What’s Really on Trial Cooperating Witnesses in the SBF Trial May Get Little to No Prison Time Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ari Redbord

Head of Policy

TRM Labs

Ari Redbord, head of legal and government affairs at TRM Labs, discusses all the charges that Sam Bankman-Fried is facing and their potential outcomes.  Show highlights: the charges against SBF and why the criminal indictment is the most important whether SBF testifying in Congress would have complicated the DOJ's criminal case against him why it is complicated to state how much prison time Sam is facing the ways in which Bankman-Fried can reduce his sentence by cooperating with authorities why it's so unprecedented that the indictment came only one month after the collapse of FTX whether other senior FTX executives are providing prosecutors with information to reduce their charges the reasons why SBF is being held in The Bahamas and the likelihood of him being extradited how much the case will be delayed if SBF's lawyers fight the extradition Ari's thoughts on whether this case will go to trial Take Unchained's 2022 survey!   Unchained is doing its annual survey. Tell us how you think we’re doing and how we could improve, whether it be on the podcast, in the newsletter, or in our premium offering. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!  Thank you to our sponsors! Crypto.com Guest Ari: Twitter Previous appearances on Unchained:  Is TRM Labs Blocking Addresses From DeFi Protocols? Ari Redbord Says No  Episode Links Unchained: CFTC and SEC File Damning Complaints Against Sam Bankman-Fried and FTX SBF Denied Bail in The Bahamas, Will Remain in Fox Hill Prison Former FTX CEO Sam Bankman-Fried Arrested Amid US Indictment Bahamas Asked SBF to Mint Hundreds of Millions of Dollars’ Worth of New Tokens After Collapse, Say FTX Liquidators SBF Directed $8B Alameda Liabilities to an FTX Account He Called ‘Weird Korean,’ Says CFTC Bloomberg: FTX Bankruptcy Standoff Heats Up as Bahamas Challenges US Case Sam Bankman-Fried’s Harsh Bahamas Jail Could Shift His Stance on Extradition Fortune: Sam Bankman-Fried indicted on multiple conspiracy and fraud charges by U.S. officials The Enron Trial: A Chronology Previous coverage of Unchained on Sam Bankman-Fried and FTX: Why the Legal Process for FTX and Sam Bankman-Fried Could Take Years The Chopping Block: SBF Wants to Win in the Court of Public Opinion. Will He? Jesse Powell and Kevin Zhou on How FTX and Alameda Lost $10 Billion Is the Collapse of Crypto Lending Over, or Is It Just Starting? Did the Bahamian Government Direct SBF and Gary Wang to Hack FTX? The Chopping Block: Why Lenders Didn’t Liquidate Alameda When It Was Underwater  Erik Voorhees and Cobie on Why FTX Loaned Out Customers’ Assets The Chopping Block: FTX: The Biggest Collapse in the History of Crypto? Sam Bankman-Fried on How to Prevent the Next Terra and 3AC Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ari Redbord

Head of Policy

TRM Labs

Ari Redbord, Head of Legal and Government Affairs at TRM Labs, talks about the sanctions on Tornado Cash, and the role of blockchain analytics tools in crypto.    Show highlights: Ari’s background as a federal prosecutor and his work for the US Treasury why regulators sanctioned Tornado Cash, according to Ari why the Ronin hack was important for regulators to start taking DeFi hacks more seriously the fact that for the first time the Treasury Department sanctioned software whether the Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) messed up whether regulators understood the impact on regular users the role of TRM and blockchain analytics tools in mitigating risk how decentralized applications use tools like the ones provided by TRM to comply with regulations and to block addresses why, if Ari were a regulator, he would focus on regulation guidance whether the sanctions on Tornado Cash are unconstitutional what the future of privacy in crypto looks like and whether the government is going after privacy technologies   Thank you to our sponsors!   1inch: https://1inch.io/ Crypto.com: https://crypto.onelink.me/J9Lg/unconfirmedcardearnfeb2021   Ari Twitter: https://twitter.com/ARedbord   Tornado Cash Treasury Press release:  https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0916#:~:text=WASHINGTON%20%E2%80%93%20Today%2C%20the%20U.S.%20Department,since%20its%20creation%20in%202019 Tornado Cash Sanctioned: https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/08/08/crypto-mixing-service-tornado-cash-blacklisted-by-us-treasury/ Developer arrested: https://www.fiod.nl/arrest-of-suspected-developer-of-tornado-cash/ TRM Labs blog post:  https://www.trmlabs.com/post/how-defi-platforms-are-using-data-from-trm-labs-to-respond-to-tornado-cash-sanctions Tornado Cash post on compliance: https://tornado-cash.medium.com/tornado-cash-compliance-9abbf254a370 Coin Center’s article authored by Jerry Brito and Peter Van Valkenburgh: https://www.coincenter.org/u-s-treasury-sanction-of-privacy-tools-places-sweeping-restrictions-on-all-americans/ Second Coin Center article authored by Jerry Brito and Peter Van Valkenburgh: https://www.coincenter.org/analysis-what-is-and-what-is-not-a-sanctionable-entity-in-the-tornado-cash-case/ Coin Center may challenge the US Treasury's decision to sanction Tornado Cash: https://decrypt.co/107475/coin-center-tornado-cash-ban-court Circle freezes USDC in sanctioned wallets: https://www.theblock.co/post/162172/circle-freezes-usdc-funds-in-tornado-cashs-us-treasury-sanctioned-wallets  Crypto exchange dYdX blocked accounts that received funds from Tornado Cash: https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/08/11/crypto-exchange-dydx-blocked-accounts-that-received-even-small-amounts-from-tornado-cash/ The possibility of forking Tornado Cash: https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2022/08/10/cloning-tornado-cash-would-be-easy-but-risky/ What the sanctions mean for privacy coins: https://www.coindesk.com/layer2/2022/08/09/what-the-tornado-cash-sanction-means-for-privacy-coins/ Tornado Cash laundered $1.5 billion, according to Elliptic: https://hub.elliptic.co/analysis/tornado-cash-mixer-sanctioned-after-laundering-over-1-5-billion/ Celebrities get Dusted: https://decrypt.co/es/107090/tornado-cash-dusts-public-wallets-jimmy-fallon-brian-armstrong-steve-aoki-logan-paul Previous Coverage of Unchained: Tornado Cash Sanctioned. Did the Government Overstep Its Bounds?: https://unchainedpodcast.com/tornado-cash-sanctioned-did-the-government-overstep-its-bounds-ep-384/ The Chopping Block: Did OFAC Overstep by Sanctioning Tornado Cash?: https://unchainedpodcast.com/the-chopping-block-did-ofac-overstep-by-sanctioning-tornado-cash-ep-386/  ** For more episode links and details visit the Unchained website **   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ari Redbord

Head of Policy

TRM Labs

Olta Andoni, deputy general counsel at Ava Labs, and Ari Redbord, head of legal and government affairs at TRM Labs, discuss the Terra stablecoin meltdown, implications for impending international regulations, and the history of stablecoin regulation internationally. Topics covered include: What the most important legal issues are for the Terra meltdown How the Terra implosion will trigger more regulation of the space How regulators seemed to think stablecoins should be regulated even before Terra How their approach differs between dollar-backed stablecoins vs. algorithmic vs. crypto collateral-backed coins How European regulators want stablecoin issuers to be treated like banks What the Lummis-Gillibrand bill would mean for US stablecoin regulation Whether Terra’s demise will mean that regulators won’t tolerate experimentation with algorithmic stablecoins  Why regulators will be skittish about stablecoins in response to Terra’s meltdown Why Olta and Ari were impressed by the NY Department of Financial Services guidance on stablecoins What the establishment of SEC jurisdiction over Terraform Labs based on the Mirror investigation from last fall means for any enforcement action by the SEC over Terra  Whether Do Kwon and/or Terraform could face criminal charges in multiple jurisdictions Why international regulatory consistency is important in the crypto space Whether civil and class-action lawsuits against Terraform could be expected How Terra 2.0 could open TFL up to further action from regulators and law enforcement Why more education is needed to overcome anxiety about DeFi regulations How hack nondisclosures could be subject to government investigation   Thank you to our sponsors! Crypto.com: https://crypto.onelink.me/J9Lg/unconfirmedcardearnfeb2021  Beefy Finance: https://beefy.finance/    Episode Links   Olta Avalanche https://www.avax.network/ Ava Labs https://www.avalabs.org/ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/oltaandoni/ Twitter https://twitter.com/AndoniOlta   Ari TRM Labs Website:  https://www.trmlabs.com/ TRM Labs Twitter https://twitter.com/trmlabs?s=20&t=m24Ir0OerqPgEejlhL-bdQ TRM Talks https://www.trmlabs.com/category/trm-talks LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/ari-redbord-4054381b4/ Twitter https://twitter.com/ARedbord?s=20&t=m24Ir0OerqPgEejlhL-bdQ   Lummis-Gillibrand Bill Bill Introduction: https://www.gillibrand.senate.gov/news/press/release/-lummis-gillibrand-introduce-landmark-legislation-to-create-regulatory-framework-for-digital-assets Legal Memo from DLx Law: https://dlxlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/DLX_FSV-summary_RFIA_060722.pdf Lummis-Gillibrand Section by Section Overview (summary by bill authors): https://www.gillibrand.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Lummis-Gillibrand%20Section-by-Section%20%5bFinal%5d.pdf Responsible Financial Innovation Act (full text): https://www.gillibrand.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Lummis-Gillibrand%20Responsible%20Financial%20Innovation%20Act%20%5bFinal%5d.pdf Blog post intro (by Senator Kirsten Gillibrand): https://gillibrandny.medium.com/the-responsible-financial-innovation-act-218a764abd6c   FINMA FINMA: https://www.finma.ch/en/ FINMA on Stablecoins: https://www.finma.ch/en/news/2019/09/20190911-mm-stable-coins/ FINMA Publishes Stablecoin Guidance: https://www.sif.admin.ch/sif/en/home/finanzmarktpolitik/digitalisation-financial-sector/stablecoins.html   NY DFS Guidance on Stablecoin Issuance: https://www.dfs.ny.gov/industry_guidance/industry_letters/il20220608_issuance_stablecoins Press Release: https://www.dfs.ny.gov/reports_and_publications/press_releases/pr202206081 CNBC Coverage: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/08/new-yorks-financial-watchdog-issues-stablecoin-guidance-calls-for-reserve-requirements.html   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Olta Andoni

Deputy General Counsel

Ava LabsZlatkin Wong

Ari Redbord

Head of Policy

TRM Labs