Cheaper Fees and No More Free Lunch for Layer 2s? Inside Ethereum's Fusaka Upgrade - Ep. 966
Ethereum for the first time ever has rolled out a second major upgrade within a year. Fusaka has gone live less than six months after Pectra.
In this Unchained podcast episode, Offchain Labs Prysm Team Ethereum Cored Developer Preston Van Loon joins Protocol Watch founder Christine D. Kim to unpack how Fusaka would make transactions cheaper, improve the UX for users and impact layer 2 chain operators.
They also discuss the relatively short time to deployment and how this is impacting client and layer 2 teams.
Preston also explains why he is less nervous about Fusaka than he was about Pectra and the indicators of success. Plus what comes next after the hard fork.
Thank you to our sponsors!
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Guests:
Christine D. Kim, Host of Ready for Merge Podcast and writer of ACD After Hours
Preston Van Loon, Ethereum Core Developer working at Prysm by Offchain Labs
Previous appearances on Unchained:
How Will ETH React to Ethereum’s Shanghai Upgrade?
Links:
Unchained:
Ethereum Fusaka Upgrade Clears Final Test Before December Launch
Ethereum Gave Away Too Much for Too Long. Will Its Pivot Be Enough?
Timestamps:
🚀 0:00 Introduction
👀 4:39 How Fusaka is scaling Ethereum's data layer without imposing big hardware requirements
💡 11:44 How Fusaka is “a big stepping stone” to Ethereum's proto-danksharding vision
💥 15:08 Why the Fusaka launch timeline is a significant milestone for Ethereum developers
17:12 How Fusaka will make signing transactions easier
👀 18:37 How Fusaka will impact layer 2 operators
🤔 22:49 Are layer 2 chains ready for Fusaka?
⁉️ 29:30 Can L2s benefit from PeerDAS without features like backfilling?
🤔 32:41 Did developers have enough time to prepare for Fusaka?
🫣 34:31 Do faster development timelines impact client diversity?
🧏 40:24 What should have been done differently with Fusaka preparations
📽 42:27 The best way to watch the Fusaka upgrade in real time
💡 44:20 Why Preston is less nervous about Fusaka than Pectra
🚦46:01 Indicators of Fusaka success
📝 46:45 Preston's risk assessment for blob parameter only hard forks
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PREMIUM - Preston Van Loon, Uma Roy, DeFi Dave | David's Personal Research
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In this bonus episode of the Bankless podcast, we highlight insights from three guests featured in the Bankless premium feed. Uma Roy from Succinct discusses the Succinct Prover Network's role in enhancing Ethereum's transaction capabilities. Preston Van Loon outlines the upcoming hard forks Fusaka and Glamsterdam, along with essential privacy innovations. DeFi pioneer Dave from CapMoney presents a novel stablecoin model that combines yield-generating strategies with risk mitigation. Join us for a glimpse into the innovative advancements shaping the crypto world!
——
TIMESTAMPS
0:00 Intro
1:28 Uma Roy’s Insights on Succinct Prover Network
7:50 Ethereum Roadmap with Preston Van Loon
14:30 DeFi Innovations with DeFi Dave
20:11 Conclusion and Call to Action
——
Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures
Court Overturns Tornado Cash Sanctions: What’s Next for Privacy? Preston Van Loon, Ethereum Core Dev
Preston Van Loon, an Ethereum core developer, joins The Defiant Podcast this week to discuss his role as a plaintiff in the high-profile Tornado Cash lawsuit against the U.S. Treasury’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC). He described how the sanctions imposed on Tornado Cash impacted legitimate users seeking privacy on Ethereum and underscored the significance of a recent appellate court ruling questioning whether smart contracts qualify as “property” under U.S. sanctions law. Van Loon also noted the possibility of a friendlier regulatory environment in the United States, suggesting that changing policy stances could spur crypto innovation. Finally, he addressed ongoing discussions within the Ethereum community about development priorities, governance structures, and the challenges of maintaining a decentralized protocol as the ecosystem grows.
Chapters
00:00 - Introduction and Background
01:15 - What is Tornado Cash?
04:00 - Why Tornado Cash Was Sanctioned
06:45 - Filing the Lawsuit
09:50 - Court Ruling and Implications
14:00 - Next Steps in the Legal Case
18:00 - Privacy Rights and Crypto
24:00 - Impact on Builders and Industry
34:00 - Ethereum's Role and Future Challenges
50:00 - Community Feedback and Leadership
55:00 - Closing Remarks
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Arbitrum's BOLD New Bet with Ed Felten & Raul Jordan
What did the Arbitrum L2 just unlock with its BOLD release? What stage of L2 is Arbitrum in? What is next for decentralizing the Arbitrum stack? We brought on Ed Felten and Raul Jordan to help answer these questions and much more.
Ed Felten is a Co-Founder of OffChain Labs, the organization that created Arbiturm. Raul Jordan is one of the Co-Founders of Prysmatic Labs, the Ethereum consensus client which not too long ago got acquired by Offchain Labs.
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----- TIMESTAMPS
0:00 Intro 7:30 What is BOLD? 9:20 Are L2s Decentralized? 19:30 BOLD Timeline 23:40 What Does BOLD Solve? 27:15 How Does BOLD Work? 31:35 Why Use BOLD? 38:00 Shared Sequencing 42:30 Why Was BOLD Hard to Build? 48:50 Will BOLD Be Open-Source? 50:00 Are L2s Secure? 52:30 Staking $ARB 1:00:20 Arbitrum's New Tech 1:03:50 Ethereum's Overarching Roadmap 1:06:30 Closing & Disclaimers
----- RESOURCES
BOLD, Permissionless Validation for Arbitrum Chains https://offchain.medium.com/bold-permissionless-validation-for-arbitrum-chains-9934eb5328cc
Ed Felten https://twitter.com/EdFelten
Raul Jordan https://twitter.com/rauljordaneth
----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research.
Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures
Did Ethereum Break? with Preston Van Loon & Terence Tsao
Did Ethereum break or what actually happened?
We brought on Preston Van Loon & Terence Tsao, two Ethereum Protocol Developers, to help us answer that question.
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⚖️ ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum
👾STADER LABS | ETHX LIQUID STAKING https://bankless.cc/Stader
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🎮IMMUTABLE | GAMING ECOSYSTEM https://bankless.cc/Immutable
🛞MANTLE | MODULAR LAYER 2 NETWORK https://bankless.cc/Mantle
------ Timestamps:
0:00 Intro 7:53 Did Ethereum Break? 8:22 What Happened? 14:50 Slot Visualization & Connectivity 20:30 Did Users Notice? 23:57 Why Was This Worrisome? 26:19 Preston & Terence's Emotional Response 35:55 Ethereum Resilience 39:30 Was This Good For Ethereum? 41:20 Solana vs. Ethereum Liveness 44:40 Closing & Disclaimers
------ Resources:
Is Ethereum Breaking? https://twitter.com/BanklessHQ/status/1657122512516575232
Preston Van Loon https://twitter.com/preston_vanloon
Terence Tsao https://twitter.com/terencechain
----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research.
Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures
Arbitrum’s Roadmap To Scale Ethereum | Steven Goldfeder, Raul Jordan
In this episode of Empire, Santi is joined by Steven Goldfeder and Raul Jordan to discuss the Prsymatic Labs acquisition and the future of Arbitrum. We cover Arbitrum's approach to state growth, AnyTrust chains, developer usability, ZK tech and more. And trust me, Steven's take on enterprises leveraging crypto is worth staying until the end!
- -
Timestamps:
(00:00) Introduction
(03:57) Arbitrum Acquires Prysmatic Labs
(09:04) Monetizing Open Source & Building For Ethereum
(17:29) State Growth, ZK Tech And L2 Innovations
(31:14) Are L2s Ready For Prime Time?
(35:51) Circle Ad
(37:33) Arbitrum AnyTrust Chains
(42:40) User & Developer Acquisition
(46:31) What Changed After The Merge?
(49:31) Reddit Points & Enterprise Interest
(1:00:11) L1 Censorship Risk
- -
Follow Steven: https://twitter.com/sgoldfed
Follow Raul: https://twitter.com/rauljordaneth
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Circle’s USDC has quickly become one of the most trusted and widely used stablecoins because of its composability, stability and reserve transparency. As a seamless, trusted digital currency, USDC is a zero-to-one opportunity for the global financial system. Check out their Transparency Hub at http://empirepodcast.link/circle that outlines everything from links to USDC weekly reserve reports, monthly attestations, and blog posts written by their executive team highlighting how and why USDC was built the way it is.
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Resources
Offchain Labs website
https://offchainlabs.com/
- -
Disclaimer: Nothing said on Empire is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions, not financial advice. Santiago, Jason, and our guests may hold positions in the companies, funds, or projects discussed.
Massive Arbitrum Acquisition!! with Steven Goldfeder & Preston Van Loon
Arbitrum acquires Prysmatic! Hear all about the deal and what it means for both teams, the future of Ethereum, and the space writ large.
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------ Timestamps:
0:00 Intro 10:00 How the Acquisition Happened 13:45 Prysmatic Big W's 15:15 Ethereum W's 16:08 Prysmatic Origins 23:20 What Happens Next at Prysmatic 24:50 Arbitrum's Contribution 30:37 Credible Neutrality Concerns 35:25 Open Source Ethos 43:43 Vitalik's Take 49:47 Acquisition Concerns 53:10 Arbitrum Access 56:00 Prysmatic Worth 57:56 Wen Arb Token 58:20 Closing & Disclaimers
------ Resources:
Steven Goldfeder https://twitter.com/sgoldfed
Preston Van Loon https://twitter.com/preston_vanloon
----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research.
Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures
Preston Van Loon on Ethereum's Merge and His Lawsuit Against Treasury- Ep.394
Preston Van Loon, cofounder and Ethereum core developer at Prysmatic Labs, talks about the Merge, its impact on an environmental level, and why he is a plaintiff in the lawsuit against the Treasury Department over Tornado Cash.
Show highlights: what the Merge is on a technical level and what its impact will be
whether the proof of stake consensus mechanism makes the network more decentralized and secure
what happens if the Merge fails and whether there’s a contingency plan
why Preston founded Prysmatic Labs and how Prysm works
what the next steps are for Ethereum and what the community is working on
whether Preston thinks a proof of work Ethereum fork would succeed
when and how Ethereum’s high fees and scaling issues are going to be resolved
why Preston joined the lawsuit against the US Treasury over the Tornado Cash sanctions
how Preston would celebrate a successful Ethereum Merge
Thank you to our sponsors!
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Episode Links
Previous Coverage of Unchained on the Merge:
Arthur Hayes, Former Ethereum Skeptic, on Why the Merge Makes Him Bullish on ETH
With the Merge, Will Ethereum Take Over Bitcoin’s Title as Digital Gold?
Why Kevin Zhou Believes Ethereum Will Have 3 Forks After the Merge
Post-Merge, If Lido Becomes Dominant, What Does That Mean for Ethereum?
Lawsuit against the US Treasury:
Coinbase is supporting a lawsuit against the Treasury Department by six users of Tornado Cash.
Fortune article on the lawsuit
Why Preston joined the lawsuit.
The Merge:
Ethereum Foundation Merge announcement.
Ethereum carbon emission reductions.
ETH Post-Merge Dynamics:
Cumberland on the Ethereum dynamics after the merge
Miles Suter on the implications of the Merge
The triple point asset
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Building for Ethereum in Go
In this episode, we will talk about building for Blockchain in Go. We are joined by two of the co-founders of Prysmatic Labs (a company behind the upgrades to the Ethereum network). Raul Jordan and Preston Van Loon tell Angelica how they started the company, as well as what it’s like to build technical infrastructure for the Ethereum blockchain using Go.
Join the discussion
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Sponsors:
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Featuring:
Raul Jordan – Website, GitHub, X
Preston Van Loon – GitHub, LinkedIn, X
Angelica Hill – GitHub, LinkedIn, X
Show Notes:
Go implementation of Ethereum proof of stake
Prysmatic Labs
Official Go implementation of the Ethereum protocol
Eth2 Mainnet Incident Retrospective
Ethereum.org
Ardan Labs
Something missing or broken? PRs welcome!
"Ethereum is About Six Months Away from Proof-of-Stake:" Preston Van Loon
In today’s episode, we interview Preston Van Loon. Preston co-founded Prysmatic Labs, one of the main teams building Ethereum 2.0, and has been leading that team for the past three years. On top of that, he recently founded a DeFi project which bundles the entire crypto market cap in one token to allow anyone to easily buy something like a crypto index. Preston talks about the latest in ETH2 —he says Etheruem’s big migration into its proof-of-stake chain is about six months away, give or take two months. He says Ethereum may be at a disadvantage relative to other Layer 1s, which are launching with more scalable technologies. But he also believes it will be hard for other chains to build the community Ethereum has, faster than Ethereum will upgrade.
Big thanks to our sponsors:
Kyber, whose Dynamic Market Maker, or DMM, is designed to react to market conditions to optimize fees, maximize returns
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SotN #42: Ethereum Devs Building DeFi | Preston Van Loon and Will Villanueva
Both Preston Van Loon of Cryptex and Will Willanueva of Element Finance have helped build the Ethereum Protocol, but are now both working on DeFi apps.
In this State of the Nation, we dive into what it's like for Ethereum Devs building DeFi.
State of the Nations are Livestreamed on Tuesdays at 11am PST. ------ 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/ 🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/ 🎖 CLAIM YOUR BADGE: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/-guide-2-using-the-bankless-badge ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS:
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🔀 KWENTA | SYNTHETIC ASSET EXCHANGE https://bankless.cc/kwenta ------ State of the Nation #42: Ethereum Devs Building DeFi Guests: Preston Van Loon & Will Villanueva
Tremendous work has been (and is still being) done to develop Ethereum 2, and just as much innovation is happening in Ethereum's app layer, DeFi. In this week's State of the Nation, we bring on guys who have done both: Preston Van Loon and Will Villanueva.
Preston Van Loon is a former Google software engineer who switched to crypto full-time after Vitalik put 1000 ETH into Prysmatic Labs, which Preston founded. Prysmatic labs is now the most popular ETH 2 client. Preston is also the co-founder of a brand new DeFi app ‘Cryptex’, which is a collateralized synthetic asset that tracks the total market cap of all crypto-assets.
Will Villanueva is a former team member of the Quilt team at Consensys and contributed to a mountain of R&D on Ethereum sharding. Will is now the CEO of Element, which offers high yield fixed income for DeFi assets. Element works by breaking a single token into two different ones; a yield-bearing token, and a principle token.
We brought both Will and Preston because their unique work histories of first helping build the Ethereum Protocol and now building DeFi apps. We discuss how their experiences have shaped their current projects, the trajectory of Ethereum and its app layer, and the timing of it all.
"The Hardest Problems Draw the Smartest People." - Preston Van Loon
------ Resources:
Cryptex: https://cryptex.finance/
Element Finance: https://element.fi/
Preston on Twitter: https://twitter.com/preston_vanloon?s=20
Will on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wjvill?s=20
------ This Week on Bankless:
⚒️ How to Use dYdX (4/13: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/how-to-trade-on-the-dydx-rollup 📈 Market Monday (4/12): https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/coinbase-week-market-monday 🎙️Podcast w/ Hester Peirce (4/12): https://shows.banklesshq.com/p/-the-sec-and-defi-hester-peirce 🧢 Weekly Action Recap (4/10): https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/the-coinbase-tsunami-weekly-recap 🗞️ Weekly Rollup (4/9): https://shows.banklesshq.com/p/-rollup-coinbase-ipo-fei-protocol 🏴 dYdX & StarkWare (4/6): https://shows.banklesshq.com/p/sotn-41-scaling-defi-with-dydx-and ⚒️ How to Crypto Tax (4/6): https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/how-to-do-crypto-taxes-for-the-lazy
----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research.
Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures
Deep dive into Eth 2.0, scaling and a project that lets users buy the entire crypto market
Led by Ethereum 2.0 developer and Prysmatic Labs founder Preston Van Loon and Joe Sticco, Cryptex is set to launch the mainnet of its token TCAP in the next few weeks. Already, the firm has lined up 500 users for its testnet, including a number of liquidity providers in the US.
On this episode of The Scoop, Sticco and Van Loon breakdown the launch of their token, which offers investors a way to buy the entire crypto market, how DeFi can offer an alternative to indexes popular on Wall Street, and the scaling solutions being explored in Ethereum.
This episode is brought to you by our sponsors Bakkt and Kraken
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Phase 0 ANNOUNCED - ETH STAKING IS HERE | Preston Van Loon of Prysmatic Labs ALPHA LEAK
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------
Phase 0 is HERE - ETH STAKING December 1st!
What Happens on December 1st? Can we just send ETH to depositcontract.eth? What else do we have to do?
How much ETH is required in the deposit contract?
What are the risks? How do I avoid getting slashed?
We bring Preston Van Loon from the Prysmatic Labs team to inform us of WHAT JUST HAPPENED!
LINKS: Launchpad for Staking ETH and running an ETH 2 validator: https://launchpad.ethereum.org/
MAKE SURE YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR DOING. START BY WATCHING THE VIDEO on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkUiw1y3BHU&feature=youtu.be
Ethereum.org Official Blog: https://blog.ethereum.org/2020/11/04/eth2-quick-update-no-19/
Deposit contract Etherscan address: https://etherscan.io/address/0x00000000219ab540356cBB839Cbe05303d7705Fa
Follow Preston on Twitter: https://twitter.com/preston_vanloon
Prysmatic Labs website: https://prysmaticlabs.com/
RocketPool Meet the Nation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqf6aJCFZn8&t=599s
RocketPool Tactic: https://bankless.substack.com/p/how-to-mint-reth-on-rocket-pool
------
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-----
Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time we may add links in this channel to products we use. We may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. We'll always disclose when this is the case.
SotN#11 - BUILDING w/ Raul Jordan (Eth2 Testnet Broke? L2 will Save Us! Pro-o-o-tocol Sink!)
STATE OF THE NATION #11 - Tuesday, August 18, 2020
Watch on the Bankless YouTube Channel
The State of the Bankless Nation is....BUILDING!
The bankless boys discuss why.
-----
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----- TOPICS:
1) ETH2 TESTNET BROKE?
2) LAYER2 WILL SAVE US
3) PRO-O-O-O-O-TOCOL SINK
We show:
Bankless Medalla Testnet Guide
Official docs for prysmatic labs client
Ethereum economic density article - Nic Carter
Loopring DeFi Dad video on Bankless YouTube
OMG network taking Tether settlement
dYdX scaling with layer2 starkware
Near bridging to Ethereum
Binance staking DAI using Compound/DSR
Huobi launching Global DeFi Summit
--- Episode Actions:
Catch SOTN LIVE on YouTube every Tuesday at 10am EST (2pm UTC)
Join AMA with Antonio of dYdX live at 2pm EST this Thursday
Subscribe to Bankless to get Medalla testnet guide then get involved
Also...subscribe to Bankless YouTube to watch State of the Nation every Tuesday!
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Subscribe to the Bankless newsletter program http://bankless.substack.com/
Visit the official Bankless website for resources http://banklesshq.com/
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Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research.
Disclosure. From time-to-time we may add links in this channel to products we use. We may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. We'll always disclose when this is the case.
SotN#11 - BUILDING w/ Raul Jordan (Eth2 Testnet Broke? L2 will Save Us! Pro-o-o-tocol Sink!)
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STATE OF THE NATION #10 - Tuesday, August 25, 2020
The State of the Bankless Nation is....BUILDING! The bankless boys discuss why.
TOPICS:
1) ETH2 TESTNET BROKE?
2) LAYER2 WILL SAVE US
3) PRO-O-O-O-O-TOCOL SINK
We show:
1) Bankless Medalla Testnet Guide
https://bankless.substack.com/p/guide-becoming-a-validator-on-the
2) Official docs for prysmatic labs
https://docs.prylabs.network/docs/
3) Ethereum economic density article - Nic Carter
https://www.coindesk.com/ethereums-fees-mean-choosing-between-a-world-computer-and-a-financial-network
4) Loopring DeFi Dad video on Bankless YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF_e4bx-aiQ
5) OMG network taking Tether settlement
https://twitter.com/omgnetworkhq
https://omg.network/bitfinex-usdt-tether-integration-omg-network/
6) dYdX scaling with layer2 starkware
https://integral.dydx.exchange/scaling-with-starkware/
7) Near bridging to Ethereum
https://twitter.com/AlexSkidanov/status/1296139890778726400
8) Binance staking DAI using Compound/DSR
https://www.binance.com/en/support/articles/32f889b8dacd42e28dc16d035ad8f35e?utm_source=BinanceTwitter&utm_medium=GlobalSocial&utm_campaign=GlobalSocial
9) Huobi launching Global DeFi Summit
https://cointelegraph.com/news/huobi-launches-global-defi-alliance-to-merge-east-and-west
---
ACTION ITEMS:
1) Subscribe to Catch SOTN LIVE every Tuesday at 10am EST (2pm UTC)
https://www.youtube.com/c/bankless
2) Join AMA with Antonio of dYdX live at 2pm EST this Thursday
https://bankless.substack.com/p/announcing-bankless-amas-every-2nd
3) Subscribe to Bankless to get Medalla testnet guide then get involved
https://bankless.substack.com/
Also...subscribe to Bankless YouTube to watch State of the Nation every Tuesday!
-----
Don't stop at the video!
Subscribe to the Bankless newsletter program
http://bankless.substack.com/
Visit the official Bankless website for resources
http://banklesshq.com/
Follow Bankless on Twitter
https://twitter.com/BanklessHQ
Follow Ryan on Twitter
https://twitter.com/ryansadams
Follow David on Twitter
https://twitter.com/TrustlessState
Follow DeFi Dad on Twitter
https://twitter.com/DeFi_Dad
-----
Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research.
Disclosure. From time-to-time we may add links in this channel to products we use. We may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. We'll always disclose when this is the case.