Killer marketing secrets that always work (ft. Ogilvy Adman, Rory Sutherland)
$1M Attention Guide: 15+ ways to get eyeballs on what you're building https://clickhubspot.com/tkwc
Episode 845: Sam Parr ( https://x.com/theSamParr ) and Shaan Puri ( https://x.com/ShaanVP ) talk to marketing legend Rory Sutherland ( https://x.com/rorysutherland ).
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Show Notes:
(0:00) Intro
(1:44) Horsepower
(12:15) Reverse benchmarking
(17:38) Pay attention to what irritates you
(21:47) Ogilvy secrets
(27:28) Marketing hacks used by Apple, UBER, McDonald's
(36:35) direct response marketing 101
(1:08:50) Recommended reading
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Links:
• Alchemy - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01F1HOAWA
• Illusion of Choice - https://www.amazon.com/dp/0857199749
• Nassim Taleb books - https://www.amazon.com/stores/Nassim-Nicholas-Taleb/author/B000APVZ7W
• Ogilvy on Advertising - https://www.amazon.com/dp/039472903X
• Writing That Works - https://www.amazon.com/dp/0060956437
• When More Is Not Better - https://www.amazon.com/dp/1647820065
• Scientific Advertising - https://a.co/d/0ixEJA1B
• The Choice Factory - https://a.co/d/0ixa769O
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Check Out Sam's Stuff:
• Hampton (joinhampton.com): My community for founders. Average member does $25m/year. Many of the guests are members. Get after it...apply: http://joinhampton.com/mfm
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Check Out Shaan's Stuff:
• Shaan's weekly email - https://www.shaanpuri.com
• Visit https://www.somewhere.com/mfm to hire worldwide talent like Shaan and get $500 off for being an MFM listener. Hire developers, assistants, marketing pros, sales teams and more for 80% less than US equivalents.
• Mercury - Shaan uses Mercury across all of his companies. you can too: http://mercury.com/
Mercury is a fintech company, not an FDIC-insured bank. Banking services provided by Choice Financial Group, Column, N.A., Members FDIC
• I run all my newsletters on Beehiiv and you should too + we're giving away $10k to our favorite newsletter, check it out:
beehiiv.com/mfm-challenge
My First Million is a HubSpot Original Podcast // Brought to you by HubSpot Media // Production by Arie Desormeaux // Editing by Ezra Bakker Trupiano /
What most people miss about marketing | Rory Sutherland (Vice Chairman of Ogilvy UK, author)
Rory Sutherland is widely regarded as one of the most influential (and most entertaining) thinkers in marketing and behavioral science. He’s the vice chairman of Ogilvy UK, the author of Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life, and the founder of Nudgestock, the world’s biggest festival of behavioral science and creativity. He champions thinking from first principles and using human psychology—what he calls “thinking psycho-logically”—over mere logic. In our conversation, we cover:
• Why good products don’t always succeed, and bad ones don’t necessarily fail
• Why less functionality can sometimes be more valuable
• The importance of fame in building successful brands
• The importance of timing in product success
• The concept of “most advanced, yet acceptable”
• Why metrics-driven workplaces can be demotivating
• Lots of real-world case studies
• Much more
Note: We encountered some technical difficulties that led to less than ideal video quality for this episode, but the lessons from this conversation made it impossible for me to not publish it anyway. Thanks for your understanding and for bearing with the less-than-ideal video quality.
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Brought to you by:
• Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application
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• Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace
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Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-most-people-miss-about-marketing
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Where to find Rory Sutherland:
• X: https://x.com/rorysutherland
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rorysutherland
• Book: Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life: https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Curious-Science-Creating-Business/dp/006238841X
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Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
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In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Rory’s background
(02:37) The success and failure of products
(04:08) Why the urge to appear serious can be a disaster in marketing
(08:05) The role of distinctiveness in product design
(12:29) The MAYA principle
(15:50) How thinking irrationally can be advantageous
(17:40) The fault of multiple-choice tests
(21:31) Companies that have successfully implemented out-of-the-box thinking
(30:31) “Psycho-logical” thinking
(31:45) The hare and the dog metaphor
(38:51) Marketing’s crucial role in product adoption
(49:21) The quirks of Google Glass
(55:44) Survivorship bias
(56:09) Balancing rational ideas with irrational ideas
(01:06:19) The rise and fall of tech innovations
(01:09:54) Consistency, distinctiveness, and clarity
(01:21:12) Considering psychological, technological, and economic factors in parallel
(01:23:35) Where to find Rory
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Referenced:
• Google Glass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Glass
• Meta Portal TV: https://www.meta.com/portal/products/portal-tv/
• Rory’s quote in a LinkedIn post: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/brad-jackson-04766642_the-urge-to-appear-serious-is-a-disaster-activity-7093497742710210560-1LYN/
• The MAYA Principle: Design for the Future, but Balance It with Your Users’ Present: https://www.interaction-design.org/literature/article/design-for-the-future-but-balance-it-with-your-users-present
• Ogilvy: https://www.ogilvy.com/
• MCI: https://www.mci.world/
• Veuve Clicquot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veuve_Clicquot
• Why do the French call the British ‘the roast beefs’?: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/2913151.stm
• The Killing on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/the-killing-f5da5c2d-4626-4ba9-bcf3-ff5f891771fb
• Original The Killing on BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017h7m1
• The Mandarin Oriental, Hong Kong: https://www.mandarinoriental.com/en/hong-kong/victoria-harbour
• SAT: https://satsuite.collegeboard.org/sat
• The Widening Racial Scoring Gap on the SAT College Admissions Test: https://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html
• What is the age of the captain?: https://www.icopilots.com/what-is-the-age-of-the-captain/
• Octopus Energy: https://octopus.energy/
• Kraken: https://octopusenergy.group/kraken-technologies
• Toby Shannan: https://theorg.com/org/shopify/org-chart/toby-shannan
• Dunbar’s number: Why we can only maintain 150 relationships: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191001-dunbars-number-why-we-can-only-maintain-150-relationships
• AO: https://ao.com/
• Zappos: https://www.zappos.com/
• Joe Cano on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeycano/
• John Ralston Saul’s website: https://www.johnralstonsaul.com/
• Voltaire’s Bastards: The Dictatorship of Reason in the West: https://www.amazon.com/Voltaires-Bastards-Dictatorship-Reason-West/dp/0679748199
• Psycho-Logic: Why Too Much Logic Deters Magic: https://coffeeandjunk.com/psycho-logic/
• Herbert Simon’s Decision-Making Approach: https://bura.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/4995/1/Fulltext.pdf
• Robert Trivers’s website: https://roberttrivers.com/Welcome.html
• Crazy Ivan: https://jollycontrarian.com/index.php?title=Crazy_Ivan
• The Joys of Being a Late Tech Adopter: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/28/technology/personaltech/joys-late-tech-adopter.html
• Jean-Claude Van Damme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Van_Damme
• Tim Berners-Lee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee
• Edward Jenner and the history of smallpox and vaccination: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200696/
• The real story behind penicillin: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/the-real-story-behind-the-worlds-first-antibiotic
• What Are Japanese Toilets?: https://www.bigbathroomshop.co.uk/info/blog/japanese-toilets/
• reMarkable: https://remarkable.com/
• Chumby: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumby
• Survivorship bias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
• Jony Ive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jony_Ive
• Marc Newson’s website: https://marc-newson.com/
• Designing Men: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2013/11/jony-ive-marc-newson-design-auction
• Qantas A330: https://marc-newson.com/qantas-a330/
• Herodotus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus
• Big Decision? Consider It Both Drunk and Sober: https://www.forbes.com/sites/chunkamui/2016/03/22/wine-and-sleep-make-for-better-decisions/?sh=5c97fdc524b1
• How Henry Ford and Thomas Edison killed the electric car: https://www.speakev.com/threads/how-henry-ford-and-thomas-edison-killed-the-electric-car.4270/
• Watch Jay Leno get nostalgic and swoon over this 1909 EV: https://thenextweb.com/news/jay-leno-talk-about-electric-car-1909-baker
• Jay Leno’s Garage: https://www.youtube.com/@jaylenosgarage
• Nudgestock: https://nudgestock.com/
• Akio Morita: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akio_Morita
• Don Norman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donnorman/
• What Makes Tesla’s Business Model Different: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/active-trading/072115/what-makes-teslas-business-model-different.asp
• Monica Lewinsky on X: https://x.com/MonicaLewinsky
• Blindsight: The (Mostly) Hidden Ways Marketing Reshapes Our Brains: azon.com/Blindsight-Mostly-Hidden-Marketing-Reshapes-ebook/dp/B07ZKZ5DWF
• Branding That Means Business: https://www.amazon.com/Branding-that-Means-Business-Economist-ebook/dp/B09QBCCH9N
• PwC: https://www.pwc.com
• Ryanair: https://www.ryanair.com
• British Airways: https://www.britishairways.com/
• Wrigley’s began as a soap business: know when to pivot: https://theamericangenius.com/entrepreneur/wrigleys-began-as-soap-know-when-to-pivot/
• Transport for Humans: https://www.amazon.com/Transport-Humans-Perspectives-Pete-Dyson/dp/1913019357
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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
—
Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe
Rory's brain vs ChatGPT, outrageous marketing, work trends and MUCH more w/ Rory Sutherland | E1756
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Todays show:
Rory Sutherland joins Jason to cover an almost unbelievable range of topics. The limits of this conversation know no bounds! Don't miss this one.
Follow Rory: https://twitter.com/rorysutherland
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Time stamps:
(00:00) Rory Sutherland joins Jason
(2:28) Broad adoption of video conferencing
(7:26) Unpacking simple social norms
(11:46) Squarespace - Use offer code TWIST to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain at https://Squarespace.com/TWIST
(13:05) The importance of framing and the role of reliability
(15:04) The pandemic's influence on video conferencing trends
(18:46) A.I.'s role in a post-pandemic world
(21:53) Application of A.I.
(22:45) Brainstorming and how the human brain functions
(23:44) Rory Vs. ChatGPT brainstorming unique soda flavors
(28:43) Release - Get your first month free at https://release.com/twist
(30:12) ChatGPT's response
(34:55) The behavioral science behind AI suggestions to humans
(36:34) Tolerating eccentricity within the ad industry
(38:42) The disproportionate faith in AI vs Humans
(41:04) Notion - Try it for free today at notion.com/twist
(42:30) AI and the dormant fallacy (55:57) What is driving the next generation
(57:59) Modern work trends: Vacation time, the four-day weekend, and flexible work
(01:07:26) The Jevons paradox in Economics and the WGA strike
(01:16:19) Technology that doesn't quite think like a human
(01:22:30) The Elgin Marbles controversy
(01:25:16) Reevaluating the concept of retirement age
(01:28:24) The startup surge in UAE
(01:32:53) Promoting social freedom, betting on startups, and marketing outrageous products
(01:44:25) Discussing historical houses and the Ennis house
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Follow Jason:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/jason
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jason
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasoncalacanis
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Twitter: https://twitter.com/TWiStartups
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thisweekin
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Rory Sutherland – Moonshots and Marketing - [Invest Like the Best, EP.191]
My guest today is Rory Sutherland. Rory is the Vice Chairman of Ogilvy & Mather Group, which is one of the largest and most renowned advertising agencies in the world. He’s also the author of one of my favorite recent books called Alchemy: The surprising power of ideas that don’t make sense. In this conversation, we explore many of his counterintuitive ideas about business. Rory makes you think as much as anyone, so I hope you enjoy this conversation.
This episode of Invest Like The Best is sponsored by Canalyst. Canalyst is the leading destination for public company data and analysis.
If you’re a professional equity investor and haven’t talked to Canalyst recently, you should give them a shout. Learn more and try Canalyst for yourself at canalyst.com/Patrick.
For more episodes go to InvestorFieldGuide.com/podcast.
Sign up for the book club and new email newsletter called “Inside the Episode” at InvestorFieldGuide.com/bookclub.
Follow Patrick on Twitter at @patrick_oshag
Show Notes
(2:12) – (First question) – Why spreadsheets and logic kill magic
(5:42) – What a product/service is vs how it’s delivered and makes people feel (regular moonshot vs psychological moonshot)
(13:22) – Psychological anomalies - doing things faster, better, cheaper (Red Bull vs Coke)
(19:54) – Swiss army knife that companies should avoid
(22:50) – Don’t design for average
(24:39) – How do people approach improving their business through marketing
(27:30) – Case for direct mail
(29:22) – Turning your weaknesses into a strength
(34:29) – The seven deadly sins and how useful they are as guideposts
(37:38) – Most powerful sin for marketing
(39:14) – Reaching intelligent answers from dumb questions
(43:25) – Why the opposite of a good idea can sometimes be a good idea
(47:30) – Kindest thing anyone has done for him
Learn More
For more episodes go to InvestorFieldGuide.com/podcast.
Sign up for the book club and new email newsletter called “Inside the Episode” at InvestorFieldGuide.com/bookclub.
Follow Patrick on Twitter at @patrick_oshag
E1077: “Alchemy” Author Rory Sutherland on the Darwinian approach to business, analyzing outliers, why eccentric CEOs have a psychological advantage with customers & more!
1:00 Jason intros "Alchemy" author Rory Sutherland
3:45 Architecture is the cheapest way to buy art
6:01 How Rory is dealing with quarantine, why he prefers working from home, and will businesses be more efficient post-COVID?
14:12 What is Rory's job, why you should strive to create your own job title, treating the free market as Galapagos Island, using the Darwinian approach to business & analyzing outliers
19:47 Why some business successes are due to psychological discoveries: Red Bull, Dyson & Nespresso
27:25 Jason's theory on why Dyson succeeded, Kano theory on product development, why eccentric CEOs have a psychological advantage with customers, how Uber's arrival map was the key feature of the product
33:48 Why the actual value of products are typically not the proposed value of products
39:40 How new products hold value as a conversation starter, how context, setting & framing is essential to innovation
43:21 Two ways to create economic value: find something people want and figure out how to make it OR figure out what you can make and make people want it & examples: Lionfish, Fish That Ate The Whale, Royal Potatoes
50:13 Why are Americans resistant to behavioral economics? Is there still a hangover from McCarthyism? How this relates to COVID and wearing masks
1:02:08 Daily news is 95% noise, why political news coverage doesn't reflect political reality
1:11:40 Why modern politics is dumb since far left and far right are much closer than they've ever been, issues with referrals & nepotism
1:21:06 How Rory got his first job in advertising "as a weirdo" and the wildcard since he was hired as part of a group, individual hiring vs. group hiring
1:23:20 TWiST Book Club Questions - Casey: Favorite behavioral study experiment or one that he found the results to be surprising? (ie. Milgram experiment or Stanford Prison Study)
1:32:12 Catherine: What’s Rory’s favorite alchemist moment of his own from work? Has he had to advocate for an illogical idea, and how did he persuade others?
1:41:01 What will we lose by being remote?
1:51:19 Reading their own audiobooks, how cheaper and easier consumption does NOT cannibalize original mediums
2:01:26 How Rory would reinvent the theatre experience, why modern corporations are slow to innovate & experiment
2:11:18 Greatness of re-readable books and rewatchable movies/television
