Lovable

(0:00) Former Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger joins Jason! (1:41) What Went Wrong at Intel (15:19) Why a Taiwan Blockade Would Cripple the US Economy (25:00) Lovable's Anton Osika: One Million New Apps a Week (33:38) How Lovable is Bringing Down Builder Costs Thanks to our partners for making this possible! Airwallex is a leading global payments and financial platform for modern businesses, offering trusted solutions to manage everything from business accounts, payments, treasury, and spend management to embedded finance. https://airwallex.com/allin Plaud - If your work depends on conversations — meetings, deal flow, interviews, customer calls — Plaud helps you capture and organize everything with highly accurate AI-generated notes that are not just simple summaries, but also highlight pain points, key decisions, next steps, and customizable summary templates. Check out Plaud at https://plaud.ai/allin and use code ALLIN for up to 20% off! Which is also available on Amazon: https://amzn.to/43URLff (Code: ALLIN20X) Follow Pat: https://x.com/PGelsinger Follow Anton: https://x.com/antonosika Follow the besties: https://x.com/chamath https://x.com/Jason https://x.com/DavidSacks https://x.com/friedberg Follow on X: https://x.com/theallinpod Follow on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theallinpod Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@allin Follow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/allinpod Intro Music Credit: https://rb.gy/tppkzl https://x.com/yung_spielburg And a special thank you to Raise Summit for hosting us in Paris

Pat Gelsinger

CEO

Intel

Anton Osika

Co-founder and CEO

Lovable

In this episode we speak to Jonathan Grahl. Jonathan is the Team Lead of Infrastructure at Lovable where he oversees the platform stack the company runs on. We talked about Kubernetes, Sandboxes and Chocolate. Do you have something cool to share? Some questions? Let us know: - web: kubernetespodcast.com - mail: kubernetespodcast@google.com - twitter: @kubernetespod - bluesky: @kubernetespodcast.com News of the week OpenTelemetry is a CNCF Graduated Project CNCF TAG Elections KubeCon India Kubernetes Community Days global events Links from the interview Lovable Cilium Etcd Cloudflare Sandbox Agent Sandbox (Kubernetes) OpenClaw Claude OpenAI Bun toolkit for Javascript gVisor Firecracker Kata Containers Vitess

Jonathan Grahl

Team Lead of Infrastructure

Lovable

Feature Differentiation Is Dead. Here's What Actually Wins Now. When AI writes 80-plus percent of your code, the feature advantage you spent years building can be replicated in a day. Elena knows this better than most - she spent 15 years running growth at Dropbox, Miro, SurveyMonkey, and Amplitude, then joined Lovable and watched the old playbook stop working in real time. At Lovable, $400M ARR and 200 people, no titles, shipping multiple times a day, the rules are different. In this session, she breaks down what replaced feature moats, why she fired herself from her own VP job to go back to being an IC, and what it actually looks like to run a company at this velocity. You'll learn: Which moats still hold - network effects, data, brand, security and compliance - and why hardware is harder to copy than software ever was Why freemium is now a marketing budget line item, not a cost problem, and how Lovable's LinkedIn Premium partnership is converting at double digits What "no titles, everyone ships" looks like in practice, including a 20-year-old engineer pushing back on a VP's pricing page PR Why the next career flex isn't climbing to VP - it's becoming a high-power IC who builds what used to take a team of dozens How to build context for your AI so it actually replicates your thinking instead of producing average output for everyone This is for you if: You're a founder or growth leader trying to figure out what your actual moat is when feature differentiation keeps evaporating You're in management and quietly wondering if you'd be better off getting your hands dirty again You're trying to understand how an AI-native company actually operates day to day, not just in theory

Elena Verna

Head of Growth

LovableElena Verna ConsultingAmplitudeMongoDB

Elena Verna is the Head of Growth at Lovable, one of the fastest growing companies in the world having hit $400M in ARR in just 18 months. Prior to Lovable, Elena was Head of Growth at both Dropbox and Miro. AGENDA: 00:00 – Why "Growth Is Now a Trust Problem" (Not a Marketing Problem) 06:10 – Is SEO Dying Because of AI Search? 07:00 – Did Lovable's Growth Come From the Founder's Personal Brand? 08:30 – Why Every Founder Should Push Employees to Be Marketers? 13:10 – Why Every Employee at Lovable Ships Code (Even Marketing) 21:20 – Why Paid Marketing in Year One Is a "Death Trap" 31:50 – Why Annual Subscriptions Are the Wrong Monetization Model for AI 37:00 – If Elena Had an Unlimited Marketing Budget, What Would She Do? 48:00 – How Lovable Does Product Launches

Elena Verna

Head of Growth

LovableElena Verna ConsultingAmplitudeMongoDB

Lazar Jovanovic is a full-time professional vibe coder at Lovable. His job is to build both internal tools and customer-facing products purely using AI, while not having a coding background. In this conversation, he breaks down the tactics, workflows, and framework that let him ship production-quality products using only AI. We discuss: 1. Why having no coding background can be an advantage when building with AI 2. Why most of your time should go to planning and chat mode, not prompting 3. What to do when you get stuck: his 4x4 debugging workflow 4. The PRD and Markdown file system that keeps AI agents aligned across complex builds 5. Why kicking off four or five parallel prototypes is the best way to clarify your thinking 6. Why design skills and taste are going to be the most important skills in the future 7. His “genie and three wishes” mental model for making the most of AI’s limitations 8. How product, engineering, and design roles are converging—and what that means for your career — Brought to you by: Strella—The AI-powered customer research platform: https://strella.io/lenny Samsara—Saving lives with AI built for physical operations: https://samsara.com/lenny WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs: https://workos.com/lenny — Episode transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/getting-paid-to-vibe-code — Archive of all Lenny's Podcast transcripts: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/yxi4s2w998p1gvtpu4193/AMdNPR8AOw0lMklwtnC0TrQ?rlkey=j06x0nipoti519e0xgm23zsn9&st=ahz0fj11&dl=0 — Where to find Lazar Jovanovic: • X: https://x.com/lakikentaki • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lazar-jovanovic • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@50in50challenge • Starter Story course: https://build.starterstory.com/build/ai-build-accelerator?via=lazar (code LAZAR15 for 15% off) — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Introduction to Lazar and professional vibe coding (04:53) What a professional vibe coder actually does day-to-day (09:26) Why non-technical backgrounds can be an advantage (12:24) The importance of self-awareness (14:42) His “genie and three wishes” mental model (17:43) Developing taste and judgment in the age of AI (21:46) The parallel project approach for better outcomes (29:30) Creating dynamic context windows with PRDs (36:56) Why elite vibe coders focus on planning, not coding (44:43) Creating MD files to guide AI development (50:57) Why prototyping still matters (56:50) Why “good enough” is no longer good enough (01:00:53) The future of engineering in an AI world (01:05:14) What to do when you get stuck: his 4x4 debugging workflow (01:14:27) Helping agents learn from their mistakes (01:15:35) Why watching agent output is more important than code (01:19:08) The incredible pace of AI development (01:22:55) Why emotional intelligence will become more valuable (01:28:30) How to become a professional vibe coder (01:30:10) Why building in public is the fastest path to opportunities (01:37:03) Final thoughts on focusing on quality over tech stack — Referenced: • The new AI growth playbook for 2026: How Lovable hit $200M ARR in one year | Elena Verna (Head of Growth): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-new-ai-growth-playbook-for-2026-elena-verna • Elena Verna on how B2B growth is changing, product-led growth, product-led sales, why you should go freemium not trial, what features to make free, and much more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/elena-verna-on-why-every-company • The ultimate guide to product-led sales | Elena Verna: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-led • 10 growth tactics that never work | Elena Verna (Amplitude, Miro, Dropbox, SurveyMonkey): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/10-growth-tactics-that-never-work-elena-verna • Lovable: https://lovable.dev • Lovable + Shopify: https://lovable.dev/shopify • Everyone’s an engineer now: Inside v0’s mission to create a hundred million builders | Guillermo Rauch (founder and CEO of Vercel, creators of v0 and Next.js): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/everyones-an-engineer-now-guillermo-rauch • Mobbin: https://mobbin.com • Dribbble: https://dribbble.com • 21st.dev: https://21st.dev • Lovable base prompt generator: https://building-advisor.lovable.app/ • Lovable PRD generator: https://chatgpt.com/g/g-67e1e85fbeac8191a69b95c6d5c42ef6-lovable-prd-generator • Felix Haas’s newsletter: https://designplusai.com • Bauhaus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bauhaus • Glassmorphism: https://www.figma.com/community/plugin/1197106608665398190/glassmorphism • UI style guide: http://uistyle.lovable.app • Cloudflare: https://www.cloudflare.com • Ben Tossell on X: https://x.com/bentossell • The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell • Peter Thiel says AI will be ‘worse’ for math nerds than for writers: https://www.businessinsider.com/peter-thiel-ai-worse-for-math-professionals-than-writers-2024-4 • Andrej Karpathy on X: https://x.com/karpathy • The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google’s secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/surge-ai-edwin-chen • Why experts writing AI evals is creating the fastest-growing companies in history | Brendan Foody (CEO of Mercor): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/experts-writing-ai-evals-brendan-foody • Slumdog Millionaire: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1010048 — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. — Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Lazar Jovanovic

Professional Vibe Coder

Lovable

Lovable CEO Anton Osika joins the AI Daily Brief to unpack how AI-assisted coding evolved from early GitHub experiments into load-bearing infrastructure inside companies, why 2025 marked the inflection point for vibe coding, and why 2026 will belong to builders who can think, plan, and ship with AI end to end. The conversation covers the shift from prototypes to production, how enterprises are rethinking workflows and SaaS, the rise of personal and ephemeral software, and what skills will actually matter as AI takes on more of the mechanics of building. Brought to you by: KPMG – Discover how AI is transforming possibility into reality. Tune into the new KPMG 'You Can with AI' podcast and unlock insights that will inform smarter decisions inside your enterprise. Listen now and start shaping your future with every episode. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.kpmg.us/AIpodcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Blitzy.com - Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://blitzy.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to build enterprise software in days, not months Robots & Pencils - Cloud-native AI solutions that power results ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://robotsandpencils.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ The Agent Readiness Audit from Superintelligent - Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://besuper.ai/ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠to request your company's agent readiness score. The AI Daily Brief helps you understand the most important news and discussions in AI. Subscribe to the podcast version of The AI Daily Brief wherever you listen: https://pod.link/1680633614 Interested in sponsoring the show? sponsors@aidailybrief.ai

Anton Osika

Co-founder and CEO

Lovable

Elena Verna is the head of growth at Lovable, the leading AI-powered app builder that hit $200 million in annual recurring revenue in under a year with just 100 employees. In this record fourth appearance on the podcast, Elena shares how the traditional growth playbook has been completely rewritten for AI companies. She explains why Lovable focuses on innovation over optimization, how they’ve shifted from activation to building new features, and why giving away their product for free has become their most powerful growth strategy. We discuss: 1. Why 60% to 70% of traditional growth tactics no longer apply in AI 2. Why you have to re-find product-market fit every 3 months 3. The specific growth tactics driving Lovable’s unprecedented growth 4. Why giving away product is a growth strategy that beats paid ads 5. “Minimum lovable product” as the new standard (not minimum viable product) 6. Why activation now belongs to product teams, not growth teams 7. Whether you should join an AI startup (honest tradeoffs) — Brought to you by: WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs Vercel—Your collaborative AI assistant to design, iterate, and scale full-stack applications for the web Persona—A global leader in digital identity verification — Transcript: ⁠https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-new-ai-growth-playbook-for-2026-elena-verna⁠ — My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): ⁠https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/181207556/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation⁠ — Where to find Elena Verna: • X: https://x.com/elenaverna • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elenaverna • Newsletter: https://www.elenaverna.com — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Introduction to Elena Verna (05:19) The scale and growth of Lovable (08:55) Confidence in Lovable as a business (12:17) Retention at Lovable (15:02) Lovable’s unique growth levers (28:13) The role of marketing in Lovable’s success (38:09) Launching new features (40:59) Hiring and team dynamics (43:17) The value of vibe coding (49:46) The importance of community (51:47) Giving away your product for free (56:26) Tripling their company size (01:00:23) Product-market-fit challenges (01:08:50) Advice for joining AI companies (01:12:00) Work-life balance (01:15:20) What it’s like to work at Lovable (01:19:45) Women in tech (01:25:29) Final thoughts and lightning round — Referenced: • Elena Verna on how B2B growth is changing, product-led growth, product-led sales, why you should go freemium not trial, what features to make free, and much more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/elena-verna-on-why-every-company • The ultimate guide to product-led sales | Elena Verna: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-led • 10 growth tactics that never work | Elena Verna (Amplitude, Miro, Dropbox, SurveyMonkey): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/10-growth-tactics-that-never-work-elena-verna • Lovable: https://lovable.dev • Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika • Stripe: https://stripe.com • What differentiates the highest-performing product teams | John Cutler (Amplitude, The Beautiful Mess): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-differentiates-the-highest-performing • How to win in the AI era: Ship a feature every week, embrace technical debt, ruthlessly cut scope, and create magic your competitors can’t copy | Gaurav Misra (CEO and co-founder of Captions): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-win-in-the-ai-era-gaurav-misra • “Dumbest idea I’ve heard” to $100M ARR: Inside the rise of Gamma | Grant Lee (CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-50-people-built-a-profitable-ai-unicorn • Eric Ries on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eries • Elena’s post on LinkedIn about Lovable Missions: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/elenaverna_everythingispossible-lovableway-activity-7401627519646474242-hn6e • SheBuilds: https://shebuilds.lovable.app • Shopify + Lovable: https://lovable.dev/shopify • The Product-Market Fit Treadmill: Why every AI company is sprinting just to stay in place: https://www.elenaverna.com/p/the-product-market-fit-treadmill • Cursor: https://cursor.com • The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell • Unorthodox frameworks for growing your product, career, and impact | Bangaly Kaba (YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Instacart): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/frameworks-for-growing-your-career-bangaly-kaba • The adjacent user: https://brianbalfour.com/quick-takes/the-adjacent-user • Granola: https://www.granola.ai • Wispr Flow: https://wisprflow.ai • I’m worried about women in tech: https://www.elenaverna.com/p/im-worried-about-women-in-tech • Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/slack-founder-stewart-butterfield — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. — Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Elena Verna

Head of Growth

LovableElena Verna ConsultingAmplitudeMongoDB

Today, we're joined by Alexandre Pesant, AI lead at Lovable, who joins us to discuss the evolution and practice of vibe coding. Alex shares his take on how AI is enabling a shift in software development from typing characters to expressing intent, creating a new layer of abstraction similar to how high-level code compiles to machine code. We explore the current capabilities and limitations of coding agents, the importance of context engineering, and the practices that separate successful vibe coders from frustrated ones. Alex also shares Lovable’s technical journey, from an early, complex agent architecture that failed, to a simpler workflow-based system, and back again to an agentic approach as foundation models improved. He also details the company's massive scaling challenges—like accidentally taking down GitHub—and makes the case for why robust evaluations and more expressive user interfaces are the most critical components for AI-native development tools to succeed in the near future. The complete show notes for this episode can be found at https://twimlai.com/go/752.

Alexandre Pesant

AI Lead

Lovable

Today’s show: On an action-packed TWiST, Alex and Jason check out Meta’s latest wearables, which promise to fix the “constantly staring down at your phone” problem and prevent you from blocking that little light letting others know you’re filming them. Think the upgrade is worth $799 of your hard-earned money? PLUS, Lovable CEO Anton Osika stops by to answer YOUR questions, talk about how people are using the iconic vibecoding app, balancing accessibility and user engagement with the need to actually bring in revenue, and why Stockholm has become arguably Europe’s leading tech hub. AND Beehiiv joins with Discord, Google bakes Gemini into Chrome, and MORE of the week’s biggest tech news. Check out all this and more in a brand-new “This Week in Startups”! Timestamps: (0:00) Why Jason thinks Meta’s new $799 Smart Ray Bans, which covertly record people in 3K, are creepy! (04:14) Why, in the technology business, not quitting is how you succeed. (09:47) .TECH: Say it without saying it. Head to get.tech/twist or your favorite registrar to get a clean, sharp .tech domain today. (10:54) Show Continues… (17:02) Anton Osika from Lovable calls in from Stockholm: Why he thinks it’s Europe’s biggest tech hub. (20:37) Sentry - New users get 3 months free of the Business plan (covers 150k errors). Go to http://sentry.io/twist and use code TWIST (21:44) A look at Lovable’s new security features, to make founders feel more confident in their vibe coding (27:31) How Lovable is balancing engagement with the need to make money (29:55) Alphasense - Get deeper insights into your business with the power of AI search and market intelligence. Start with a free trial at https://www.alpha-sense.com/twist (31:03) Show Continues… (42:29) Anton’s tactical advice for founders who want to build a community around their product. (49:14) A viewer asks: Is vibe coding CHEATING? (59:01) Google is baking Gemini into Chrome… but how will it work? And what about privacy? (01:05:05) Beehiiv links up with Discord. Why Alex has a few concerns! (01:11:01) Responding to some of YOUR comments. (Leave us reviews and comments on Apple and Spotify!) Subscribe to the TWiST500 newsletter: https://ticker.thisweekinstartups.com Check out the TWIST500: https://www.twist500.com Subscribe to This Week in Startups on Apple: https://rb.gy/v19fcp Follow Lon: X: https://x.com/lons Follow Alex: X: https://x.com/alex LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexwilhelm Follow Jason: X: https://twitter.com/Jason LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasoncalacanis Thank you to our partners: .TECH: Say it without saying it. Head to get.tech/twist or your favorite registrar to get a clean, sharp .tech domain today. Sentry - New users get 3 months free of the Business plan (covers 150k errors). Go to http://sentry.io/twist and use code TWIST Alphasense - Get deeper insights into your business with the power of AI search and market intelligence. Start with a free trial at https://www.alpha-sense.com/twist Great TWIST interviews: Will Guidara, Eoghan McCabe, Steve Huffman, Brian Chesky, Bob Moesta, Aaron Levie, Sophia Amoruso, Reid Hoffman, Frank Slootman, Billy McFarland Check out Jason’s suite of newsletters: https://substack.com/@calacanis Follow TWiST: Twitter: https://twitter.com/TWiStartups YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thisweekin Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thisweekinstartups TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thisweekinstartups Substack: https://twistartups.substack.com Subscribe to the Founder University Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@founderuniversity1916

Anton Osika

Co-founder and CEO

Lovable

Anton Osika is the Co-Founder and CEO @ Lovable, the fastest growing company on the planet. In just 7 months, they have scaled from $0 to $120M in ARR. They have raised over $200M in funding from some of the best including Accel, Creandum and 20VC. Their latest round priced the company at a whopping $2BN. Agenda for Today: 00:00 – Is AI an Arms Race… Or Just a Talent War? 03:45 – How Does Anton Compete with Zuck's $100M Packages for Talent 07:30 – Founder Mode vs. Structure: Can Chaos Scale? 10:15 – The Brutal Truth About Defensibility in AI Startups 13:20 – Unit Economics: Are AI Companies Doomed to Bleed Cash? 17:00 – GPT-5: Game-Changer or Overhyped Disappointment? 20:10 – How Lovable Hit $100M ARR in Just 7 Months? 25:15 – Replit, Figma, Bolt: Which Competitor is the Best? 30:00 – The Security Bombshells No One Talks About 36:40 – Should Anyone Still Study Computer Science? 40:30 – Work-Life Balance Is Dead: Inside Anton's 10x Culture 56:00 – OpenAI, Anthropic, or Grok: Who Wins the AI Wars?

Anton Osika

Co-founder and CEO

Lovable

Anton Osika is the co-founder and CEO of Lovable, which is building what they call “the last piece of software”—an AI-powered tool that turns descriptions into working products without requiring any coding knowledge. Since launching three months ago, Lovable hit $4 million ARR in the first four weeks and $10 million ARR in two months with a team of just 15 people, making it Europe’s fastest-growing startup ever. — What you’ll learn: 1. Why you need to be in the top 1% of AI tool users 2. Watch Lovable build a functional Airbnb clone in 30 seconds—complete with working features and modern design 3. The unconventional hiring approach that helped build a 15-person team capable of extraordinary execution 4. How traditional product development will look with AI 5. What skills will matter most to product teams going forward 6. How Anton’s team discovered a breakthrough in AI “unsticking itself” — Brought to you by: • Sinch—Build messaging, email, and calling into your product • Persona—A global leader in digital identity verification • Fundrise Flagship Fund—Invest in $1.1 billion of real estate — Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika — Where to find Anton Osika: • X: https://x.com/antonosika • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/antonosika/ — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Introduction to Anton and Lovable (05:12) Lovable’s rapid growth (09:39) Live demo: Building an Airbnb clone (18:34) Tips for mastering Lovable (21:42) The origin story (26:50) Scaling laws and getting AI unstuck (33:20) Reliability and unique features (36:25) The vision and future of Lovable (38:14) Skills and job market evolution in the age of AI (40:30) Hiring philosophy and team dynamics (46:21) Building in Europe (48:02) Prioritization and product roadmap (51:38) Tools and work environment (53:17) Tactics for moving fast (54:37) Advice for building product teams (57:11) Empowering non-technical founders (58:31) Future developments and user support (01:01:23) Failure corner (01:05:20) Final thoughts and advice — Referenced: • Lovable: https://lovable.dev/ • Lovable Launched: https://launched.lovable.app/ • Cloudflare: https://www.cloudflare.com/ • Supabase: https://supabase.com/ • GPT engineer: https://github.com/gpt-engineer-org/gptengineer.app • Microsoft Copilot: https://copilot.microsoft.com/chats/cmFw8dTsGU8D6b9siqQ6U • Fabian Hedin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fabian-hedin-2377b0144/ • Behind the product: Replit | Amjad Masad (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-product-replit-amjad-masad • Replit: https://replit.com/ • Cursor: https://www.cursor.com • Bolt: https://bolt.new/ • GitHub: https://github.com/ • Lane Shackleton on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laneshackleton/ • FigJam: https://www.figma.com/figjam/ • Linear: https://linear.app/ • Sana Labs: https://sanalabs.com/ • Duolingo: https://www.duolingo.com/ • Claude: https://claude.ai/ • ChatGPT: https://chatgpt.com/ • Lovable on X: https://x.com/Lovable_dev — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. — Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Anton Osika

Co-founder and CEO

Lovable

Anton Osika is the Co-Founder and CEO @ Lovable, the fastest growing startup in Europe. With Lovable, you can turn your idea into an app in seconds with just a prompt. After just 3 months, the company has scaled to $17.5M in ARR. They are adding $2M in net new revenue every single week. Even better, Lovable has 85% Day 30 retention rate, making it more retentive than ChatGPT. In Today's Episode We Discuss: 03:41 How a Side Project Turned into a $200M Company 05:39 Why Talent is 10x More Valuable Than Experience 08:57 How to Use a Waitlist Pre-Launch to 10x Growth 12:29 How to Master a Public Launch: $0 - $1M ARR in a Week 18:02 Why Raise a Large Seed Round 22:22 How Sustainable is Lovable and AI Revenue 25:22 What are Lovable's Biggest Threats: Incumbents or Open Source 27:00 Raising Series A: Should You Always Take the Money 27:46 How to Compete in the US from Europe 28:25 Is Europe as F****** as the World Thinks 29:02 Building in Europe vs. Silicon Valley 31:20 The Future of Foundation Models: Who Wins 33:47 Grok vs OpenAI vs Anthropic: Buy and Short 41:37 Quickfire Round: Insights and Reflections

Anton Osika

Co-founder and CEO

Lovable

In this episode of the Cognitive Revolution, founder Anton Osika and AI engineer Isaak Sundeman from Lovable.dev, discuss their AI coding platform that allows users to describe software in natural language and have it built by AI. They delve into the nuances of using AI for full-stack engineering and the future of human coding. During the episode, they demonstrate building a product comparison app, discussing the integration of AI, backend functionalities, and handling complex API interactions. They also talk about the challenges and opportunities in UI design, the role of AI in improving user experiences, and the potential future impacts of AI on software development. The conversation touches on the phenomenal growth and scaling of Lovable.dev, their strategies for managing context and dependencies in large codebases, and their vision and roadmap for the future of AI-powered application development. Checkout lovable here: http://lovable.dev SPONSORS: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI): Oracle's next-generation cloud platform delivers blazing-fast AI and ML performance with 50% less for compute and 80% less for outbound networking compared to other cloud providers. OCI powers industry leaders like Vodafone and Thomson Reuters with secure infrastructure and application development capabilities. New U.S. customers can get their cloud bill cut in half by switching to OCI before March 31, 2024 at https://oracle.com/cognitive NetSuite: Over 41,000 businesses trust NetSuite by Oracle, the #1 cloud ERP, to future-proof their operations. With a unified platform for accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR, NetSuite provides real-time insights and forecasting to help you make quick, informed decisions. Whether you're earning millions or hundreds of millions, NetSuite empowers you to tackle challenges and seize opportunities. Download the free CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at https://netsuite.com/cognitive Shopify: Shopify is revolutionizing online selling with its market-leading checkout system and robust API ecosystem. Its exclusive library of cutting-edge AI apps empowers e-commerce businesses to thrive in a competitive market. Cognitive Revolution listeners can try Shopify for just $1 per month at https://shopify.com/cognitive CHAPTERS: (00:00) Teaser (00:56) About the Episode (03:57) Introduction and Guest Welcome (04:21) Overview of Lovable.dev (04:53) Building a Product Comparison App (05:19) Starting the Coding Process (05:46) Defining the App's Functionality (08:21) Setting Up the Backend (13:20) Future of Software and AI (Part 1) (17:40) Sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) | NetSuite (20:20) Future of Software and AI (Part 2) (23:44) Challenges in AI Development (Part 1) (32:48) Sponsors: Shopify (34:07) Challenges in AI Development (Part 2) (39:08) Integrating External APIs (54:01) Helping Out and Initial Fixes (54:18) Progress with Documentation and API Updates (55:21) AI Analysis and Product Comparison (57:33) Building AI Applications: Challenges and Solutions (59:02) Understanding AI Agency and User Experience (01:24:27) Scaling and User Growth (01:29:03) Future Directions and Hiring (01:30:55) Final Thoughts and Advice (01:32:06) Outro PRODUCED BY: http://aipodcast.ing

Anton Osika

Co-founder and CEO

Lovable

Isaak Sundeman

AI Engineer

Lovable

OpenAI dropped Deep Research—hilariously, the exact same name as Google’s existing tool. Jason and Alex dive into the AI arms race, break down Lovable.dev’s insane growth to $10M ARR in weeks, and test whether AI can really replace software engineers. Plus, they analyze Trump’s latest tariff chaos and what it means for startups, global trade, and the economy. * Timestamps: (0:00) Jason and Alex kick off the show. (1:09) Jason’s talk and case study at Stanford (2:38) Managing the chaotic news cycle (5:22) NBA trade insights: Luka Doncic and Anthony Davis (7:15) Lovable startup's rapid growth (9:44) Lemon.io. Get 15% off your first 4 weeks of developer time at https://Lemon.io/twist (11:02) Lovable's AI demo and European startup landscape (15:20) Lovable's target market and pricing strategy (19:48) PrizePicks. Run your game. Download the app today and use code TWIST to get $50 instantly after you play your first $5 lineup! Go to: https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/TWIST (21:39) Custom software development's future with AI (23:17) Launching and designing AI-powered apps (27:07) US sovereign wealth funds and crypto regulation (28:56) LinkedIn Ads. Get a $100 LinkedIn ad credit at http://www.linkedin.com/thisweekinstartups (33:42) Creative tax and debt reduction strategies (41:34) Defense spending and OpenAI's new product (46:51) OpenAI's market impact and ethical considerations (53:02) AI's role in content creation and job market (58:13) Venture capital trends and startup ecosystem (1:01:19) DeepSeek's popularity and security concerns (1:03:28) Tariffs, economic impact, and supply chain importance * Subscribe to the TWiST500 newsletter: https://ticker.thisweekinstartups.com Check out the TWIST500: https://www.twist500.com Subscribe to This Week in Startups on Apple: https://rb.gy/v19fcp * Check out: Standford Case Study on Jason: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/case-studies/jason-calacanis-case-study-creating-resources OpenAI’s Deep Research: https://openai.com/index/introducing-deep-research/ * Follow Anton X: https://x.com/antonosika LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/antonosika/ * Follow Lovable: X: https://x.com/lovable_dev Website: www.lovable.dev * Follow Alex: X: https://x.com/alex LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexwilhelm * Follow Jason: X: https://twitter.com/Jason LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasoncalacanis * Thank you to our partners: (0:00) Lemon.io. Get 15% off your first 4 weeks of developer time at https://Lemon.io/twist (0:00) PrizePicks. Run your game. Download the app today and use code TWIST to get $50 instantly after you play your first $5 lineup! Go to: https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/TWIST (0:00) LinkedIn Ads. Get a $100 LinkedIn ad credit at http://www.linkedin.com/thisweekinstartups * Great TWIST interviews: Will Guidara, Eoghan McCabe, Steve Huffman, Brian Chesky, Bob Moesta, Aaron Levie, Sophia Amoruso, Reid Hoffman, Frank Slootman, Billy McFarland * Check out Jason’s suite of newsletters: https://substack.com/@calacanis * Follow TWiST: Twitter: https://twitter.com/TWiStartups YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thisweekin Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thisweekinstartups TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thisweekinstartups Substack: https://twistartups.substack.com * Subscribe to the Founder University Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@founderuniversity1916

Anton Osika

Co-founder and CEO

Lovable

Elena Verna is one of Silicon Valley’s most sought-after growth advisors and operators. She previously led growth at companies like Amplitude, Miro, Dropbox, and SurveyMonkey and is currently doing full-time advising for high-growth tech companies. In our conversation, Elena and I discuss: • 10 growth tactics that never work • Her 3 favorite growth frameworks • How to increase your career optionality — Brought to you by: • Sinch—Build messaging, email, and calling into your product • Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security • OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster — Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/10-growth-tactics-that-never-work-elena-verna — Where to find Elena Verna: • Newsletter: https://www.elenaverna.com/ • X: https://x.com/elenaverna • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elenaverna — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Welcome back, Elena! (06:02) Common mistakes growth teams make (08:31) #1: Hiring for growth roles too soon (15:09) #2: Hiring a head of growth to fix your problems (19:20) #3: Doing a rebrand to drive growth (25:11) #4: Obsessing over your competition (34:00) #5: Believing that your problems are unique (42:32) #6: Prioritizing other growth channels above earned channels (50:55) #7: Failing to evolve your growth model (01:01:06) #8: Not hiring advisors (01:05:55) #9: Over-experimenting (01:10:44) #10: Color optimizations, third-party signups, one-email wonders, and removing friction (01:15:00) Elena’s favorite growth frameworks (01:18:50) Contrarian corner: full-time jobs (01:26:05) Lightning round and final thoughts — Referenced: • Elena Verna on how B2B growth is changing, product-led growth, product-led sales, why you should go freemium not trial, what features to make free, and much more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/elena-verna-on-why-every-company • The ultimate guide to product-led sales | Elena Verna: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-led • Six rules of hiring for growth: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/hiring-growth • Figma: https://www.figma.com/ • Miro: https://www.figma.com/ • Notion: https://www.figma.com/ • Carol Wong on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carol-wong-14133927/ • Dropbox: https://www.dropbox.com/ • The Law of Shitty Clickthroughs: https://andrewchen.com/the-law-of-shitty-clickthroughs/ • Miroverse: https://miro.com/miroverse/ • GitHub: https://github.com/ • My 9 Favorite Growth Frameworks: https://www.elenaverna.com/p/my-9-favorite-growth-frameworks • Growth Loops are the New Funnels: https://www.reforge.com/blog/growth-loops • Racecar Growth Framework: https://www.reforge.com/blog/racecar-growth-framework • The Adjacent User: https://andrewchen.com/the-adjacent-user-theory/ • Unorthodox frameworks for growing your product, career, and impact | Bangaly Kaba (YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Instacart): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/frameworks-for-growing-your-career-bangaly-kaba • Why I’m Unquitting Full-Time Roles: https://www.elenaverna.com/p/why-im-unquitting-full-time-roles • Noah Smith’s newsletter: https://www.noahpinion.blog/ • Beef on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81447461 • Veep on Max: https://www.max.com/shows/veep/37cb4217-c710-4166-8e9f-352a61f2cd3a • The Last of Us on Max: https://www.max.com/shows/last-of-us/93ba22b1-833e-47ba-ae94-8ee7b9eefa9a • Heated boots: https://www.amazon.com/heated-boots/s?k=heated+boots • Airpods Max: https://www.apple.com/airpods-max/ • Memes by Elena: https://www.elenaverna.com/p/ten-funniest-growth-memes — Recommended books: • Project Hail Mary: https://www.amazon.com/Project-Hail-Mary-Andy-Weir/dp/0593135229/ • The Martian: https://www.amazon.com/Martian-Andy-Weir/dp/0553418025 • We Are Legion (Bobiverse #1): https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680587 • Fire Upon the Deep: https://www.amazon.com/Fire-Upon-Deep-Zones-Thought/dp/0812515285 — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. — Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Elena Verna

Head of Growth

LovableElena Verna ConsultingAmplitudeMongoDB

Brought to you by Linear—The new standard for modern software development | Braintrust—For when you needed talent, yesterday | Rows—The spreadsheet where data comes to life — Elena Verna is a leading growth expert with over 15 years of experience in tech. She was SVP of Growth at SurveyMonkey and interim CMO at Miro, where she built high-performing teams that drove significant growth. She recently served as interim Head of Growth at Amplitude and currently advises and is a board member for early-stage startups. In today’s podcast, we discuss: • What product-led sales is • How product-led sales differs from product-led growth • Unpacking common acronyms: PQAs, PQs, PQLs, and MQLs • When and how to consider investing in PLS • Metrics for identifying qualified accounts • The team, data, and tooling required for implementing PLS • Common pitfalls to avoid when adding PLS — Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-led-sales-elena-verna/#transcript — Where to find Elena Verna: • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elenaverna • Twitter: https://twitter.com/elenaverna • Newsletter: https://elenaverna.substack.com/ — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Elena’s background and what she’s doing now (07:13) Product-led sales (PLS) vs. product-led growth (PLG) (12:47) How sales solutions can be applied to enterprise-level problems (15:06) Defining enterprise-level problems  (17:51) How product-led companies start with PLS (20:30) When to add sales (22:36) Two ways to get to PLS (24:27) Why every sales-led-growth company needs to add PLG (26:50) Two ways you can own revenue (28:37) PQAs, PQs, PQLs, and MQLs (37:17) How to get started adding PLS (42:01) Metrics to identify PQAs (47:00) Why sales should be carefully applied  (49:07) Systems, infrastructure, and tooling (50:59) The people and resources required for PLS (53:42) Why you should have a clear ROI for every new hire (55:05) Why product needs to be accountable for monetization with PLS (59:57) Revenue-based goals product teams should have (1:06:28) Common pitfalls startups run into when implementing PLS (1:09:15) Benchmarks and the amount of time needed for implementing enterprise solutions (1:12:04) Using onboarding to profile users (1:13:08) Will AI be the next sales movement? — Referenced: • Elena’s previous episode on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/elena-verna-on-how-b2b-growth-is-changing-product-led-growth-product-led-sales-why-you-should-go-freemium-not-trial-what-features-to-make-free-and-much-more/ • Miro: https://miro.com/ • Figma: https://www.figma.com/ • Elena’s PLS funnel diagram: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/elenaverna_b2b-product-led-sales-guide-activity-7052664130763206658-yxLK/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop • Elena’s memes: https://www.elenaverna.com/memes • Mixpanel Signal reports: https://mixpanel.com/blog/mixpanel-signal-launch/ • Amplitude Compass chart: https://help.amplitude.com/hc/en-us/articles/235147347-The-Compass-chart-discover-your-users-a-ha-moments • Looker: https://www.looker.com/ • Tableau: https://www.tableau.com/ • Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/ • HubSpot: https://www.hubspot.com/ • Marketo: https://nation.marketo.com/ • Waitlist for PLG course on Reforge: https://www.reforge.com/programs/product-led-growth — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. — Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Elena Verna

Head of Growth

LovableElena Verna ConsultingAmplitudeMongoDB

Casey Winters is the Chief Product Officer at Eventbrite. Prior to Eventbrite, Casey led the growth product team at Pinterest. Before Pinterest, Casey started the marketing team at Grubhub and scaled Grubhub's demand-side acquisition and retention strategies. Elena Verna is the Interim Head of Growth at Amplitude. Former exec @ Miro, Netlify, SurveyMonkey. Growth Advisor to companies including Krisp, MongoDB, Ledgy, Builder.io and SimilarWeb. Kieran Flanagan is SVP Marketing at HubSpot, where he has helped the business grow internationally, move to a product-led business, quadrupled its marketing demand, and built out its media team, including the acquisition of 'The Hustle.' Andy Johns career started in growth at Facebook when the company scaled from 100M-500M active users. Since he has worked in some of the leading growth orgs at companies like Twitter, Quora and more recently at Wealthfront as Head of Growth and President. Bangaly Kaba is the Director of Product Management @ Youtube. Prior to Youtube, Bangaly led the product growth and consumer product orgs at Instacart and before Instacart was Head of Growth @ Instagram, helping grow Instagram from 440M to > 1B monthly actives in 2.5yrs. Ed Baker is a growth advisor to various startups including Lime, Zwift, Whoop, Crimson Education, GoPeer, and Playbook. Ed was the VP of Product and Growth at Uber from 2013-2017. Prior to Uber, Ed was the Head of International Growth at Facebook. Adam Fishman was the Chief Product and Growth Offer @ Imperfect Foods. Before Imperfect, Adam was VP of Product and Growth @ Patreon, Before Patreon, Adam was the Head of Growth @ Lyft, Adam was the first growth and marketing employee hired and grew the team to 18 people. In Today's Discussion on When To Hire a Head of Growth: 1.) When is the right time to hear your first growth hire? 2.) Is this hire a senior growth leader or a more junior growth engineer? 3.) What can early-stage startups do to entice senior growth leaders to their early-stage company? 4.) What data infrastructure should be in place prior to hiring your first growth hire? 5.) What does the optimal onboarding process look like for all growth hires? 6.) What can founders and CEOs do to set their growth hires up for success?

Casey Winters

Chief Product Officer

Eventbrite

Elena Verna

Head of Growth

LovableElena Verna ConsultingAmplitudeMongoDB

Kieran Flanagan

SVP of Marketing

HubSpot

Elena Verna has led growth at some of today’s most successful B2B businesses, including Miro as CMO, Surveymonkey as SVP of Growth, and now at Amplitude as interim Head of Growth. She’s also worked closely with over a dozen companies on growth and product strategy, including companies like MongoDB, Clockwise, and Netlify (where she sits on the board of directors). Elena is undoubtedly one of the smartest people on growth strategy in the world. — Thank you to our sponsors for making this episode possible: • Persona: https://withpersona.com/lenny • Stytch: https://stytch.com/ • PostHog: https://posthog.com/lenny — In this episode, we cover: 1) How did Elena go from an analyst at Safeway to Head of Product at Amplitude? 2) What’s changing in B2B growth? 3) What exactly is “product-led growth,” and how can you apply it at every stage of growth? 4) How is PLG already transforming itself? 5) Why do you need to be both product-led and sales-led? 6) Why does PLG often get crushed when you move upmarket, and how do you avoid this? 7) What it looks like when your PLG motion is dying. 8) Why product-led is the future of sales. 9) Why is freemium the way to go, over trial? 10) Why should you hire internally for your first growth hire? — Where to find Elena: • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elenaverna • Twitter: https://twitter.com/elenaverna This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Elena Verna

Head of Growth

LovableElena Verna ConsultingAmplitudeMongoDB

Elena Verna is a master when it comes to all things starting and scaling growth organizations. Previously, Elena spent over 7 years as SVP Growth @ SurveyMonkey where she ran product, growth marketing, and data teams. Post SurveyMonkey, Elena worked with the rocket ship that is Miro both as Interim CMO and as an advisor. Elena has also advised some of the best growth orgs with advisor roles at HP, MongoDB, Netlify, Maze, and many more awesome companies. In Today's Episode with Elena Verna You Will Learn: 1.) How Elena made her way into the world of tech and growth from a Craiglist job listing? What was her big break in the world of growth with her first Head of Growth role? 2.) How does Elena define "growth" and "Head of Growth"? When should startups not have a growth team? What are the 3 main levers to the growth model today? How does Elena advise between hiring a CMO vs Head of Growth? Where do many founders make mistakes with this decision in mind? 3.) Who are the wrong people to hire for your growth team? What characteristics and traits do these people have that make them bad for growth? What questions does Elena ask in interviews to determine if they have these traits? How does Elena advise founders structure the process of hiring their "Head of Growth"? Should it be internal promotion or external hire? 4.) Where do most founders go wrong in the onboarding phase of their growth team? What do you have to have in place before the growth team starts? What are the biggest red flags for founders when reviewing their growth teams in the first 3 months? Why does Elena not like post-mortems? What is the optimal relationship between CEO and Head of Growth? 5.) How can growth teams work most effectively with both product and engineering teams? How do they need to communicate to ensure a healthy relationship? Where do growth teams most often make mistakes here? What have been some of Elena's lessons on how growth can experiment without angering engineering teams?

Elena Verna

Head of Growth

LovableElena Verna ConsultingAmplitudeMongoDB