Gnosis

Can Ethereum become one economic zone again? Martin Koppelmann and Friederike Ernst from Gnosis explain how real-time proving and the Ethereum Economic Zone could reconnect fragmented rollups, unify liquidity, and give specialized chains seamless access to Ethereum’s settlement and security. ------ 📣SPOTIFY PREMIUM RSS FEED | USE CODE: SPOTIFY24 https://bankless.cc/spotify-premium ------ 🔮POLYMARKET | #1 PREDICTION MARKET https://bankless.cc/polymarket-podcast 🪐GALAXYONE | SOLANA STAKING https://bankless.cc/GalaxyOne 🦊 METAMASK | DOWNLOAD NOW https://go.metamask.io/BL-Pod-Download 🏅BITGET TRADFI | TRADE GOLD WITH USDT https://bankless.cc/bitget 🎯THE DEFI REPORT | ONCHAIN INSIGHTS https://thedefireport.io/bankless 🐇MEGAETH | 1ST REAL-TIME BLOCKCHAIN https://bankless.cc/megaeth ------ TIMESTAMPS 0:00 Intro 0:18 Fixing Fragmentation 7:49 Ethereum Economic Zone Explained 26:19 EEZ Thin Layer 30:30 Block Builders 33:06 The Bull Case 35:18 Ethereum Reorg 42:56 Layer2 EEZ Adoption 50:47 A New Age for Builders 55:54 How to Get Involved 57:42 EEZ Rollout 1:00:51 Closing & Disclaimers ------ RESOURCES Martin Koppelman https://x.com/koeppelmann Friederike Ernst https://x.com/tw_tter EEZ https://eez.io/ EEZ GitHub https://github.com/eez-association Gnosis https://www.gnosis.io/ ------ Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures⁠

Martin Koppelmann

Co-Founder

Gnosis

Friederike Ernst

Co-Founder

Gnosis

Ethereum has been left behind in this bull market. As rivals like Solana gain ground in metrics such as speed, cost, and developer mindshare, questions are being raised about whether Ethereum’s reliance on Layer 2 solutions is the right path forward—or if it needs a more fundamental redesign. In this episode, Martin Köppelmann, co-founder of Gnosis, and Justin Drake, researcher at the Ethereum Foundation, discuss the trade-offs of native and based rollups, execution capacity, and Ethereum’s ability to maintain its dominance. They debate how Ethereum should address fragmentation across rollups, whether ETH has strayed from its ultrasound money narrative, and whether its deliberate pace of innovation could make it vulnerable in an increasingly competitive landscape. Whose ideas will lead Ethereum out of this dark forest?  Show highlights: 03:10 Why Justin is so optimistic about pre confirmations and Ethereum scaling its throughput 06:15 Whether Ethereum could reach “maintenance mode” within 5 years 08:20 Whether Ethereum can solve the problem of fragmentation 20:21 The difference between based rollups and native rollups 25:29 Why Martin believes that Ethereum is not building for developers 34:21 What real-time proving is and why it is relevant 37:46 How programmable native rollups could have different business models from Ethereum but the same security 44:51 Why most assets on L2s might not actually be secured by Ethereum 50:24 Whether Ethereum’s consensus layer might see a “clean slate” redesign with the Beam Chain 58:59 Whether Ethereum’s slow pace of change could leave it vulnerable to competition 01:06:55 How Ethereum's shift to rollups and blob data has reshaped its ultrasound money narrative by transforming the primary sources of fee burn Visit our website for breaking news, analysis, op-eds, articles to learn about crypto, and much more: unchainedcrypto.com Thank you to our sponsors! Polkadot Robinhood & Arbitrum iYield Guests: Martin Köppelmann, Co-founder and CEO of Gnosis Previous appearances on Unchained: Are Layer 2s Failing Ethereum? A New Proposal Advocates for Native L2s Given the Sanctions on Tornado Cash, Is Ethereum Censorship Resistant? Justin Drake, Researcher at the Ethereum Foundation Previous appearances on Unchained: Why MEV Will Always Be Controversial Did the Merge Make Ethereum ‘the Most Secure Blockchain in the World’? Can Bitcoin Be Secured Only by Transaction Fees? Two Researchers Sound Off Is ETH on Its Way to Becoming Ultra-Sound Money? Yes, Says Justin Drake Links Previous coverage of Unchained on Ethereum layer 2s: ETH Is Down Bad, While Layer 2s Are Ripping. Are L2s Parasitic to Ethereum? Are L2s ‘Parasitic’? Analysis Shows Ethereum Only Gets a Tiny Percentage of Fees Are Solana’s ‘Network Extensions’ Just Like Ethereum’s Layer 2s But by a Different Name? Ethereum Has Had a Banner Year in Most Areas. Except Price. Should Ethereum Layer 2s Urgently Decentralize Their Sequencers? Ethereum Scaling With L2s Has Damaged Its Tokenomics. Is It Possible to Fix It Beam Chain: Unchained: Ethereum Researcher Justin Drake Proposes Beam Chain Redesign, but Not All OGs Are Onboard Bankless: You’re Not Bullish Enough! Ethereum Roadmap & Beamchain with Justin Drake Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Martin Koppelmann

Co-Founder

Gnosis

Justin Drake

Researcher

Ethereum Foundation

Martin Köppelmann, co-founder of Gnosis, has proposed that Ethereum should have native rollups—a vision aimed at addressing scalability and decentralization. Köppelmann critiques the current state of layer 2 solutions, highlighting their limitations in fully inheriting Ethereum’s security and composability.  He proposes a bold alternative: 128 Ethereum-native rollups designed to expand block space, strengthen alignment with Ethereum’s core principles, and ensure long-term viability for developers and users. Plus, Martin tackles the controversies: Are L2s parasitic? Could native rollups spell the end for existing solutions? And why should they rely on zero-knowledge proofs instead of Optimism? Show highlights: Whether the Ethereum scaling roadmap is accomplishing its goals Why based rollups are not a full solution, according to Martin What Martin proposes instead Why Martin is proposing these rollups to be ZK-rollups instead of optimistic Whether the proposed solution would focus on privacy What it is about chain abstraction that Martin doesn’t like How he envisions that these native rollups will solve many composability issues across L2s Whether the community has embraced this proposal and how likely it is to be implemented What would happen to current L2s if native rollups get implemented Why despite being against the current state of L2s, Martin says that they are not parasitic to Ethereum Visit our website for breaking news, analysis, op-eds, articles to learn about crypto, and much more: unchainedcrypto.com Thank you to our sponsors! Polkadot Robinhood & Arbitrum iYield Guest: Martin Köppelmann, Co-founder and CEO of Gnosis Links Previous coverage of Unchained on Ethereum layer 2s: ETH Is Down Bad, While Layer 2s Are Ripping. Are L2s Parasitic to Ethereum? Are L2s ‘Parasitic’? Analysis Shows Ethereum Only Gets a Tiny Percentage of Fees Are Solana’s ‘Network Extensions’ Just Like Ethereum’s Layer 2s But by a Different Name? Ethereum Has Had a Banner Year in Most Areas. Except Price. Should Ethereum Layer 2s Urgently Decentralize Their Sequencers? Blockworks: Gnosis founder argues Ethereum needs native L2s Martin’s tweet on USDC yields Timestamps:  00:00 Intro 01:47 Is Ethereum’s scaling roadmap meeting its goals? 04:07 Why Martin believes based rollups aren’t the full solution 08:11 Martin’s bold proposal for native rollups 12:07 Why ZK-rollups over optimistic rollups 15:56 Whether these rollups should also preserve privacy 17:11 Martin’s issue with chain abstraction 22:35 How native rollups could solve L2 composability problems 26:49 Has the community embraced Martin’s vision? 30:52 What happens to existing L2s if native rollups win 36:06 Whether Martin thinks L2s are parasitic to Ethereum Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Martin Koppelmann

Co-Founder

Gnosis

Dr. Friederike Ernst is the co-founder of Gnosis and Gnosis Pay. In this episode, Dr. Ernst shares how Gnosis Pay is working to bridge the gap between on-chain and off-chain payments, and how the upcoming Gnosis Card will allow users to spend their crypto at over 80 million VISA merchants worldwide. Although crypto payments for everyday transactions have yet to penetrate the consumer market, Dr. Ernst says it's only a matter of time before traditional financial services move onchain: "In 5 to 10 years, I am pretty certain that most financial rails were run on blockchain technology just because it's much, much more efficient than the current stack."

Friederike Ernst

Co-Founder

Gnosis

In this week’s episode I speak with Stefan George, the cofounder and CTO of Gnosis. Gnosis is one of the OG Ethereum projects. It was founded in 2015 by Stefan and Martin Koppelman as a prediction market platform on Ethereum and it’s now an ecosystem of financial applications, with a decentralized multi-sig wallet, called Gnosis Safe, and a decentralized exchange. Most recently, Gnosis announced it will join other DeFi projects and launch a DAO, where it would transfer a large chunk of the ether and GNO tokens in its treasury for the community to manage. This treasury is sizeable at around $100M dollars, due to the rising price of the 250,000 ETH they raised in a 2017 ICO. And this stash has been the core of a dispute with one of Gnosis token holders, hedge fund Arca. Arca claims the Gnosis token is trading below the value of the Gnosis treasury, and so they have proposed that Gnosis buy back their tokens at a value that’s between the current market value and the value of the treasury —or the book value. Stefan argues the GNO market cap is miscalculated because it’s not counting the actual number of tokens in circulation and should be higher. He also says the Gnosis DAO should drive more value to GNO holders.

Stefan George

Co-founder & CTO

Gnosis