Nick Kokonas - Know What You Are Selling - [Invest Like The Best, REPLAY]
Today, I am replaying my conversation with Nick Kokonas, one of my favorites from the show.
Nick is the co-founder of 3 of the best restaurants and bars in America - Alinea, Next, and The Aviary as well as the co-founder and CEO of Tock, a comprehensive booking system for restaurants. He majored in philosophy before becoming a derivatives trader and is now one of the most well-known names in the hospitality industry.
In this conversation, Nick shares his experience of bringing a business mindset to the restaurant industry. I'll remember it for why it's so important for a business to really know what it's selling and then actually sell it.
Nick also pulls back the curtain on why restaurants and even book publishers can be great businesses if you do them the right way. I felt like this conversation could have gone on for hours and I hope you enjoy it.
For the full show notes, transcript, and links to mentioned content, check out the episode page here.
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Editing and post-production work for this episode was provided by The Podcast Consultant (https://thepodcastconsultant.com).
Timestamps:
(00:00) Welcome to Invest Like The Best
(03:58) Intro to Nick Kokonas
(4:36) – Why it’s so important to own something
(6:09) – Make decisions that have outcomes
(8:34) – His interest in the restaurant business
(10:28) – Why restaurants are so tough
(13:39) – How their business mindset changed their running of the restaurant
(16:09) – Words they would avoid in the restaurant
(17:53) – Asking the right questions in the restaurant business
(22:14) – Importance in taking the right risks
(23:36) – Coming up with innovative strategies for ticketing, selling meals ahead of time, and dynamic pricing
(31:42) – Can dynamic pricing be extended to other businesses
(32:54) – Origin of Tock
(37:51) – Early days of Tock and identifying the right customers/challenges
(43:07) – Importance of the first customer
(45:56) – The typical restaurant business model
(50:57) – Lessons from Tock and the importance of knowing what you’re selling
(55:21) – Lessons from publishing
(57:18) – Other aspects of business that people know but do nothing about
(1:01:53) – Their response to Covid and lessons learned
(1:09:17) – The real impact to the food delivery companies
(1:10:58) – How businesses communicate their end processes to their customers
(1:15:41) – The Kindest Thing
#228 Co-Founder Alinea & Tock: Selling Experience
Guest: Nick Kokonas, co-founder of the Alinea Group and former CEO of Tock
As of October 1, 2024, Nick Kokonas is no longer an owner of the Alinea restaurant group, which he co-founded and ran for almost 20 years. When he bought a vineyard in Napa Valley prior to the exit, one of his sons remarked, “He's given up. Time to go out to pasture.”
Nick admits that the work ahead of him is “not the same” as the high-pressure world of a Michelin-starred restaurant in Chicago. But he’s started working with the magician Nate Staniforth on a new restaurant concept that will present diners with illusions and surprises over the course of a two-hour experience.
“If you want to feel wonder and feel childlike again, go see a magician,” Nick says. “[But] there’s so much bad cultural baggage ... what we wanted to do was create an experience that is not really about magic.”
Chapters:
(02:29) - Celebrity restauranteurs
(07:14) - The next act
(12:30) - Buying the vineyard
(15:37) - Fear is motivating
(17:59) - Opening night
(22:03) - Tongue cancer
(27:56) - “OK, let’s fix this”
(31:10) - Selling experience
(38:32) - The table plate
(42:40) - Feeling full
(44:14) - Next Restaurant and Tock
(49:33) - Being still
(51:19) - Nate Staniforth’s lottery illusion
(56:57) - The magic restaurant
(01:02:29) - Being misunderstood
(01:07:44) - Working via email
(01:11:43) - “Enemies”
(01:18:23) - Who Nick is hiring and what “grit” means to him
Mentioned in this episode: Mike Gamson, Shaquille O’Neal, Jeff Kaplan, Steve Bernacki, Robin Anil, Grant Achatz, OpenTable, American Express, The Big Lebowski, The New York Times, eGullet, Gourmet Magazine, Roger Ebert, Eddie van Halen, Goodfellas, The Devil Wears Prada, Batman, the Chicago Bears, Madonna, Taylor Swift, Bavette’s and Brendan Sodikoff, Pablo Picasso, Chef’s Table, Google, Brian Fitzpatrick, Finding Real Magic, David Blaine, Mark Cuban, Mark Caro, Chicago Magazine, John Mariani, Cat Cora, Homaro Cantu, Dave Portnoy, Pete Wells, and Eric Asimov.
Links:
Connect with Nick
Twitter
LinkedIn
Connect with Joubin
Twitter
LinkedIn
Email: grit@kleinerperkins.com
Learn more about Kleiner Perkins
This episode was edited by Eric Johnson from LightningPod.fm
#737: Naval Ravikant and Nick Kokonas
This episode is a two-for-one, and that’s because the podcast recently hit its 10-year anniversary and passed one billion downloads. To celebrate, I’ve curated some of the best of the best—some of my favorites—from more than 700 episodes over the last decade. I could not be more excited. The episode features segments from episode #97 "Naval Ravikant — The Person I Call Most for Startup Advice" and episode #341 "Nick Kokonas — How to Apply World-Class Creativity to Business, Art, and Life."
Please enjoy!
Sponsors:
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Timestamps:
[00:00] Start
[04:34] Notes about this supercombo format.
[05:53] Enter Naval Ravikant.
[06:05] On uncompromising honesty.
[08:05] What Naval looks for when deciding to invest in a founder.
[11:03] Recommended reading from outside the startup world.
[18:38] Who Naval considers successful.
[21:02] Cultivating non-judgmental awareness.
[26:08] How to replace bad habits with good habits.
[29:31] Naval's advice for his younger self.
[32:01] Naval's billboard.
[35:46] Enter Nick Kokonas.
[36:05] Is pressure Nick's default setting, or are perceived risks an illusion?
[36:55] How do behavioral economics and Richard Thaler influence Nick's approach?
[41:38] Nick's transition from philosophy to finance; was philosophy an asset?
[42:43] Why Nick's professor gave him shorter assignments than classmates.
[44:57] Nick's introduction to trading; dumbing down academics for clerk job.
[46:42] Why philosophy majors often become traders.
[47:19] Why Nick is glad he didn't pursue an MBA in 1992.
[48:41] Why Nick thinks his professor singled him out from his peers.
[52:52] Recommended books for aspiring entrepreneurs without philosophy background.
[57:31] Did being a Merc clerk meet Nick's expectations?
[1:00:02] How Nick followed his father's entrepreneurial model in trading.
[1:04:38] Why Nick left his mentor after a year to start his own company.
[1:05:41] How Nick and employees trained to quicken mental agility for trading.
[1:08:17] The moment Nick realized he could thrive in trading.
[1:09:02] Recommended resources for becoming a better investor.
[1:11:22] Nick seeks out "high, small hoops" for investment risks.
[1:14:00] Do businesses fail due to difficult model or lack of due diligence?
[1:16:55] When and why Nick decided to enter the restaurant business.
[1:18:26] The dinner leading to Nick and Grant Achatz's partnership.
[1:27:52] Why Nick chose to open a restaurant out of many risky options.
[1:30:33] How Nick spots talent early that others notice late.
[1:34:07] Questioning restaurant conventions like candles and white tablecloths.
[1:37:09] A now-famous chef was Alinea's first customer.
[1:38:03] Nick and Grant wouldn't let designers override their ideas.
[1:38:47] How Nick contributed effectively as a restaurant industry newcomer.
[1:14:19] Why Nick was "horrified" when Alinea won Best Restaurant in 2006.
[1:43:50] Grant's cancer diagnosis; writing a book and revolutionizing reservations.
[1:45:28] Traditional restaurant reservation systems and Nick's improvements.
[1:57:17] Bickering at press dinner; avoiding Next becoming "Disneyland of cuisine."
[2:02:14] Reservation software problems; variable pricing based on day of week.
[2:05:48] The moment Nick realized "This is the best thing I've ever built."
[2:07:41] Why the reservation system's rewards were worth the asymmetric risks.
[2:10:16] Using Marimekko charts to visualize restaurant and sponsorship data.
[2:16:57] The next industry Nick wants to disrupt: truffles.
[2:18:55] Illuminating black boxes.
[2:26:24] Self-selection of job roles; how Nick's hiring process has changed.
[2:32:01] Systems Nick uses to cope with a lot of email.
[2:37:43] Importance of engaging on social media, even if unable to respond to all.
[2:39:35] What "puzzle" filters and mini-hurdles in correspondence accomplish.
[2:40:36] Comparing similarities between the music and publishing industries.
[2:49:55] The agency problem as another black box.
[2:54:58] The Hembergers, The Alinea Project, and the upcoming independent Aviary Book.
[3:01:42] A brief discussion about cocktails.
[3:05:42] Books Nick has gifted most and how he personalizes gifts.
[3:08:10] Nick's billboard.
[3:09:49] Parting thoughts.
*
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Nick Kokonas - Know What You Are Selling – [Founder’s Field Guide, Forever Episode]
Today, we are running a special episode from our show Founder's Field Guide. In this conversation, Nick Kokonas shares his experience of bringing a business mindset to the restaurant industry. It is one of our favorites at Colossus and there is something for everyone in this timeless conversation. Nick is the co-founder of 3 of the best restaurants and bars in America - Alinea, Next, and The Aviary as well as the co-founder and CEO of Tock, a comprehensive booking system for restaurants. He majored in philosophy before becoming a derivatives trader and is now one of the most well-known names in the hospitality industry.
Listen to Founders Podcast
Founders Episode 311: James Cameron
For the full show notes, transcript, and links to mentioned content, check out the episode page here.
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Invest Like the Best is a property of Colossus, LLC. For more episodes of Invest Like the Best, visit joincolossus.com/episodes.
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Show Notes
(3:02) – (First question) – Why he thinks it’s so important to own something
(4:35) – Make decisions that have outcomes
(7:00) – His interest in the restaurant business
(8:54) – Why restaurants are so tough
(12:05) – How their business mindset changed their running of the restaurant
(14:35) – Words they would avoid in the restaurant
(16:19) – Asking the right questions in the restaurant business
(20:40) – Importance in taking the right risks
(22:02) – Coming up with innovative strategies for ticketing, selling meals ahead of time, and dynamic pricing
(30:08) – Can dynamic pricing be extended to other businesses
(31:20) – Origin of Tock
(36:17) – Early days of Tock and identifying the right customers/challenges
(41:33) – Importance of the first customer
(44:22) – The typical restaurant business model
(49:23) – Lessons from Tock and the importance of knowing what your selling
(53:47) – Lessons from publishing
(55:44) – Other aspects of business that people know but do nothing about
(1:00:19) – Their response to Covid and lessons learned
(1:07:43) – The real impact to the food delivery companies
(1:09:24) – How businesses communicate their end processes to their customers
(1:14:07) – Kindest thing anyone has done for him
Nick Kokonas of Tock & Alinea, flipping the low-margin restaurant model | E1262
Nick Kokonas joins to discuss his his company Tock (10:50), his world-class restaurant group Alinea (0:54), how restaurants can improve their operating leverage (18:05), digital experiences augmenting hospitality (39:41), why tipping needs to be replaced (44:50), the labor supply (56:16), inflation (1:00:27), employee health and more!
Nick Kokonas - Know What You Are Selling – [Founder’s Field Guide, EP.8]
My guest today is Nick Kokonas, the co-founder of the 3 of the best restaurants and bars in America - Alinea, Next, and The Aviary as well as the co-founder and CEO of Tock, a comprehensive booking system for restaurants. This was one of my favorite conversations in the history of the show. Nick is a philosophy major turned derivatives trader that is now one of the most well-known names in the restaurant and hospitality industry. We cover so many topics I can’t list them here, but I’ll remember it for why it's so important for a business to really know what it's selling and then actually sell it. Nick also pulls back the curtain on why restaurants and even book publishers can be great businesses if you do them in the right way. I felt like this conversation could have gone on for hours and I hope you enjoy it.
This episode is brought to you by Microsoft for Startups. Microsoft for Startups is a global program dedicated to helping “enterprise-ready” B2B startups successfully scale their companies. If you’re a founder running a B2B company targeting the enterprise, you should definitely check them out.
This episode is also brought to you by Solo Stove. There's simply no better way to create good moments this holiday season than around a fire with a Solo Stove Bonfire. Complete with 30-day return policy and a lifetime warranty, the unit is made entirely of stainless steel, and at just 20 pounds, the Solo Stove Bonfire is easy to transport for a perfect evening in the backyard, at the campground, or on the beach. Get $5 off with code Patrick5 before December 31st 2020.
For more episodes go to InvestorFieldGuide.com/podcast.
Sign up for the book club and new email newsletter called “Inside the Episode” at InvestorFieldGuide.com/bookclub.
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Show Notes
(3:02) – (First question) – Why he thinks it’s so important to own something
(4:35) – Make decisions that have outcomes
(7:00) – His interest in the restaurant business
(8:54) – Why restaurants are so tough
(12:05) – How their business mindset changed their running of the restaurant
(14:35) – Words they would avoid in the restaurant
(16:19) – Asking the right questions in the restaurant business
(20:40) – Importance in taking the right risks
(22:02) – Coming up with innovative strategies for ticketing, selling meals ahead of time, and dynamic pricing
(30:08) – Can dynamic pricing be extended to other businesses
(31:20) – Origin of Tock
(36:17) – Early days of Tock and identifying the right customers/challenges
(41:33) – Importance of the first customer
(44:22) – The typical restaurant business model
(49:23) – Lessons from Tock and the importance of knowing what your selling
(53:47) – Lessons from publishing
(55:44) – Other aspects of business that people know but do nothing about
(1:00:19) – Their response to Covid and lessons learned
(1:07:43) – The real impact to the food delivery companies
(1:09:24) – How businesses communicate their end processes to their customers
(1:14:07) – Kindest thing anyone has done for him
Learn More
For more episodes go to InvestorFieldGuide.com/podcast.
Sign up for the book club and new email newsletter called “Inside the Episode” at InvestorFieldGuide.com/bookclub.
Follow Patrick on Twitter at @patrick_oshag
Arming the Restaurant Rebels with Tock CEO Nick Kokonas
We’re joined by Tock CEO Nick Kokonas to discuss how they’re “arming the restaurateur rebels” versus DoorDash / Uber Eats, in much the same way Shopify has done so for e-commerce merchants versus Amazon. This episode is full of lessons on how to execute a counter-positioning playbook to disrupt entrenched incumbents, including the influence of Nick’s friend / Tock investor and Nobel prize-winning economist Richard Thaler. Whether you’re an entrepreneur who’s also building a “picks & shovels” type business or an investor interested in the future of the food industry or disruption in general, this is not one to miss.
See Ben's original Tweet that spurred the episode here: https://twitter.com/gilbert/status/1277740701246083072
There are lots of great replies to help understand the restaurant tech ecosystem, and of course, Nick chimed in with a tweet that led to him coming on the show. (Thanks to Matt Shobe for connecting us!) You can read distilled observations from all the replies here.
“Even if you’re long on Tesla, don’t buy Tesla Options.” – Nick Kokonas (Instagram: @nkokonas, Twitter: @NickKokonas)
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Show Links:
Tuesday is Not Saturday
Tim Ferriss Interview w/ Nick:
VCs Congratulating Themselves
#341: Nick Kokonas — How to Apply World-Class Creativity to Business, Art, and Life
Nick Kokonas (IG: @nkokonas, TW: @NickKokonas) is the co-owner and co-founder of The Alinea Group of restaurants, which includes Alinea, Next, The Aviary, Roister, and The Aviary NYC. He is also the founder and CEO of Tock, Inc, a reservations and CRM system for restaurants with more than 2.5M diners and clients in more than 20 countries.
Alinea has been named the Best Restaurant in America and Best Restaurant in The World by organizations and lists as diverse as The James Beard Foundation, World's 50 Best, TripAdvisor, Yelp, Gourmet Magazine, and Elite Traveler. His restaurants have won nearly every accolade afforded to them.
Nick has been a subversive entrepreneur and angel investor since 1996. He spent a decade as a derivatives trader, has co-written three books, and believes in radical transparency in markets and business. His latest effort is The Aviary Cocktail Book, which is perhaps the most gorgeous book I've ever seen. It is self-published, has already pre-sold nearly $1M in copies, and is being released and shipped in October of 2018.
We've been trying to get this interview going ever since Nick was of immense help to me for The 4-Hour Chef, so I hope you enjoy this as much as I did. We talk about much more than the restaurant business, including philosophy, derivatives trading, favorite books, and how Nick tends to break every industry he enters in the most productive way possible! Enjoy!
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